sharpening lessons

hi
ive been shaving for a while now with a straight razor and while im more than happy with my shaving i dont cut myself and everything seems to be smooth, but i seem to have problems in sharpening. after visiting this site i invested in a 40000 80000 water stone but seem to have limited sucess. ive tryed to follow instructionsthat you have placed on this site and in other places too but i feel i need some more help. i am wondering if there is anyone in england who could help me classes or something or does anyone have any idiot proof instructions that i might be able to solve my problem with.
i seem to be able to get the razor sharp enough to shave my arm hairs but when i use it on my face its a bit pulling on the hairs.
hope someone can help.
pete

Pete, it might not be sharp enough after 8k Norton. You may need to polish the edge on a finer stone or a pasted strop.

First a question:

1. When you try the razor on your arm hairs are you trying to cut just the tops of the hairs and they catch and pop off or are you shaving your arm at the skin?

1a. If it does not catch the hairs at the top and only when you shave near the skin of the arm then the edge is not quite there and you should try 3 to 5 light 1/3 passses on the Norton. That means one lap on the 4k side followed by 3 laps on the 8k side with only enough pressure to keep the blade flat on the stone.

Try the arm hair test and if they catch and pop off go to step 1b.

1b. If it is catching and poping off the tops of the hairs then the razor is sharp and the edge needs polishing. I find that the edge after 8k Norton is usable but not as comfortable as it will be after polishing up to .5 micron paste on a pasted strop. I use Tony Miller's 4 sided strop with 1, .5 and .25 micron pastes but only polish up to .5 for myself. The .25 is only for others who have skin like cowhide and soft beards. Tony also sells pre-pasted version of the same strop and is a good investment if you only hone a couple of razors for your own use.

If you don't have a pasted paddle strop and don't want to wait or incur the expense for one then you can get some metal polishing paste on a newspaper (several plies) or a linen cloth (clean flat piece of old jeans works) and place it on a flat surface like glass or flat plexiglass. Make sure that you cover the edge of whatever you use for a flat surface with the newspaper or cloth so it does not have a rough edge to catch and ruin the razor's edge. Strop the razor on this 40 to 50 laps with just a little pressure. Stropping motion is the same as honing except the spine is leading not the edge.

The edge should look more polished when you are done. Try shaving the tops of your arm hairs. It should catch and pop off most of them without you feeling any pull. Sometimes it feels like nothing is happening except you see cut hair falling off, this is ideal.

Strop it on plain leather at least 30 laps and test shave.

Myself I am satisfied if the razor catches tops of arm hairs after the 8k, polishing and stropping usually brings it the rest of the way.

In absense of anything finer than 8k Norton try stropping on plain leather 60 or more laps, this tends to improve the edge too but not as much as the pasted strop.

Also, try improving your thumb or hanging hair test instead of the forearm shave or test shave on both arms so you at least look symetrical :). When I was learning to hone I looked like I had some weird condition on my left fore arm, it was almost completely bald.

The key is that less strokes are better. Keep the razor very flat and use an X pattern from heel to toe as you push and pull the razor across the stone. Start off with a 5 stroke on the 4K 5stroke on the 8K followed by 3 and 3 and then 1 and 3 and finish with a 1 and 5. Then strop and test shave. If not there go back and try the 3-3. 1-3 and 1-5. Let us know how that works. If you want to see an example look at Randy's icon in the posts. Shows the blade going across the stone. Nenad developed this icon and it's awesome. Lynn

Lynn,

Can you please explain to us why you say less strokes are better. :)

wow thats for the quick reply. i will go home and try out all that you have suggested. i have heard people taking about the hanging hair test and well to honest i thought it was just a bit of a myth my hairs have never poped but i feel that ive now got a challange and im going to get my hairs to pop! i have prevoiusly just been happy if the shaved at the skin .
would i be right in thinking that the passes that you are suggesting are part of the sharpning piramid which i heard but dont fully understand?
humm i think i might be spending more money on strops and paste.
i currenty have dovo paste and a theis isard double side strop for sharpening and a sigle side extra wide dovo leather strop. do you think any of this is sutable or should i re invest?
i do wonder sometimes if i should have a canvass strop?

ok thats enough rambling and questions i'll try tonight and let you know.

thanks
pete

Superfly has also got a fantastic Animation of honing - I tried to download to my phone so I could use this at home sadly it never worked ..

it's a fantastic guide ..

edited I couldn't gian access to the help files found it ....

http://straightrazorpalace.com/compo...d,17/Itemid,3/ :D enjoy

Garry, what cell phone model do you have? I'll try and recode it for you...

cheers,
Nenad

Yes thats the pyramid. I don't think you need to re invest. I don't want to be picky but you may want to repost and ask more clear questions. Rambling tends to produce poor answers. I don't think you need a canvas strop.

I agree with Lynn about using less strokes (like anybody cares).

For me Rich its because its easier and less risky to make 1-3 runs down the hone than any greater number. For each pass I have a good shot at screwing it up but if I focus on 3 good passes I'm less likely to screw up one. Or as Vlad once said, 1 bad pass on the hone takes 5 passes to repair. At your skill level none of that may make any sense. But thats why I use as few passes as possible. :-)

I'm sure Lynn was referring to something else but I thought I'd share my agreement....

I say less strokes are better because I have seen people hone for hours and only badly overhone a razor or take off so much steel that the spine flattens as if the razor had been honed 20 times yet still they have a razor that they cannot shave with. I find that when you use less strokes, it is easier to get to that perfect edge unless a razor has a chip or has been really ground badly to start with. Lynn

Pete, I would say you don't need get more honing equipment until you get the razor to pop hairs with 4k/8k Norton and a plain leather strop. The other stuff will just add more variables and confuse you.

What I would recommend is to get a 50x or 60x inspection scope (around $75 or less). It will let you see the edge and what your honing is doing to it. Right now your honing technique is off and all the equipment in the world won't help because you are not keeping the razor flat on the hone.

With the scope you can examine the edge (the whole edge) and see where it is not getting honed or where you are inadvertantly dulling the edge, most likely toward the end of the stroke just before you flip the razor over. That's what I was doing.

I learned with a scope and found it to be a huge help at the begining. Now I almost never use it. I can see imperfections in the edge just by plaing a reflection of a light on it. I just verified this and I can see 1/2000" (1/80 mm) nick in the edge without the scope, just could not tell exactly how big it was other than being very small.

I can confirm what Lynn is saying about spending hours honing. My first honing took 5 and 3 hours. That's 8 hours total for a new razor with a tiny nick, that would probably take about 30 minutes max today with most of the time going to honing out the nick.

To put it into perspective, recently it took me 8 hours to sand out deep pits and hone a whole new bevel on an old razor. The new bevel and honing took under an hour. So hours of honing is a sure indication of a bad honing technique. Just as Lynn stated but in fewer words.

You might simply be pressing too hard on the hone at the end of your honing. By using the thumb test frequently while honing, I notice it's very easy to disrupt the edge I'm trying to create, particularly on the 8000. Be sure to strop carefully too.

I can never get my hairs to pop off the Norton, but my hair is very fine. That's why I really like the pasted strop. A little 0.5 makes for a fine finish.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfly

Garry, what cell phone model do you have? I'll try and recode it for you...

cheers,
Nenad

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Nenad .. it's a Sony Ericsson K750i . for whats it's worth I tried the simplistic way of simply running your fantastic avi file into a 3gp convertor .. the result as the first frame ie. just a nice pic of the superfly 4/8k and the dovo ..

Its a simple law of relativity...you can't import knowledge from the 1800s into a cell phone in 2006!

Very true ..... that would be a dream come true , my own personal teacher - until such a time comes I look upon the good members of SRP for guidance and advice , so far you have all kept me on the right path .
thanks guys :) .. Incidentally had another brilliant shave this morning with one of my little WADE WINGFIELD & ROWBOTHAMs "more sharper than your sword" .. honed by little ol' me .. it was fantastic !!!!! Im sitting here at work rubbing my smooth as glass face ;-) - another credit to you guys ..

hi all
ok ive been trying all of the suggestions that you have made but followed lynns advice on passes and strokes on the water stone. i think that it has become better and i think at the end the razor would catch the tops of the hairs on my arm. alas no pops as of yet. i found that to get to this stage i had to let the razor use its own weight across the stone and just gide it to keep it flat. so i think ive had some sucess but i would still like to get the 'pop'. as i mentioned previously i have dovo fine, corse and some theires issard paste. do you think i could acheive a pop by using any of these? or should i try to persivere with the waterstone. i dont know if it will help but i have a theires issard singing razor.

Try stropping the razor after the honing and it should make the tops of your arm hairs fly off. Using as little pressure as possible towards the end is the right thing to do.

It sounds like you are getting there just be patient and go slow. The honing and shaving improve with time and experience. Everyone says that, but it only becomes real when it happens to you.

Also, the TI razors can handle a little extra pressure early in the honing cycle.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

The key is that less strokes are better. Keep the razor very flat and use an X pattern from heel to toe as you push and pull the razor across the stone. Start off with a 5 stroke on the 4K 5stroke on the 8K followed by 3 and 3 and then 1 and 3 and finish with a 1 and 5. Then strop and test shave. If not there go back and try the 3-3. 1-3 and 1-5. Let us know how that works. If you want to see an example look at Randy's icon in the posts. Shows the blade going across the stone. Nenad developed this icon and it's awesome. Lynn

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Lynn,
You mentioned in another post that you use the Belgium after the 8K to finish it up. How many strokes do you use? I have tried a Belgium and am really pleased with the feel, more than my Shampton. Tony is going to send me one when he gets them in. jmsbcknr

I have two suggestions...

1. Pasted strop to polish afterwards

and

2. Pasted strop to polish afterwards

Choose either one.

Tony recommends that on several forum threads and so do I.


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Hey jmsbcknr, you wont be dissappointed [only maybe in the fact you didn't get one sooner] in the Belgian stones. ;)