Humbled by a W&B Wedge

Every once in a while in the height of our hubris, the Almighty seems to come along and pimp slap us into humility. Fresh off my HHT triumph on Friday, I was dealt such a pimp slap this evening. The razor in question was a 5/8 Wade and Butcher wedge. This one was more wedge than I had ever encountered. The head on view looks like an isocoles triangle. And good grief what a complete PITA to get sharp. Per instructions on this very site, I double taped the spine and had at it. After a good couple hours I finally got it to pass the AHT (arm hair test) but I suspect I've probably got a lot of work to do before it's ready for a test shave. Maybe start the pyramid at 15 tomorrow and give it a test drive sometime next week. I'm kinda bent on test driving my other 3 razors this week as yesterday's shave (with the Fred Reynolds chopper) and today's shave (with the Imperial Extra Hollow Ground) were absolutely epic. I'm hoping someone will confirm that this difficulty with honing is the nature of the wedge beast although, given my limited honing experience it may just be me.

I've had some rough nights with W&B, Wostenholm and other Sheffield wedges in the 5 and 6/8 size. Depends on the razor but some of them are tough steel to get that bevel on IME. Keep on keepin' on but don't go finer until the bevel is sure enough set. Just IMHO, anyway. :gl:

As above & don't be tempted to speed things up with extra pressure.
Wedges can indeed be a challenge but microchips are a bigger PITA than a razors grind profile. Let the stones do the work :)

On a solid wedge I will start out with 4 layers of tape, if I dont do this the bevel starts to crawl from the edge and work its way to the spine, which means I am removing far more metal than necessary and more work as well. Sham taught me this trick and it works quite well.

I feel your pain, all of you :p

It took me (off and on) about a year to get that Bell Belfast wedge shave ready. I would work a few hours and put it aside, come bace a few days later and burn out on it and put it away. Get it out a month later and do a few more hours... and so on... It has, by far, been my hardest won victories in honing, I still can't hone a stainless razor to save my life...

I got a W&B wedge from the classifieds here and I started out with three layers of tape on the spine on the 1k stone and then moved down to one layer once I'd got the blade shaving arm hair with three layers.

I also spent a good amount of time on the 1k with one layer of tape just to make sure I had the bevel well and truly set, and only then did I move onto a higher grit.

Jimmy's advice is really the best way to go here. Dont move any higher on the stones until you've got a good bevel set and you can shave arm hair.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Sounds like the way to go is more layers of tape and more time on the coarser stones. I finally did get it to shave arm hair last night but it ain't pretty. Maybe some more work on the bevel is in order and mowing arm hair with impunity. Once I've got the bevel down pat THEN I'll start the pyrimad. I think the problem was that basically I was using the same tactics I would on a hollow ground (had I done what I did last night to my Boker Red Injun, you could look at it and have whiskers fall off.)

You should be able to get arm hair shaved during the first bevel step. If not, I would not move up on the stones.


Nun2sharp, do you remove tape after the bevel stage? You mentioned you "start" with four layers insinuating that you remove layers.

I would think if you started with four or three or two you'd have to go on with that amount throughout the honing ..... but I could be wrong. I was wrong once before. :shrug:

IME hehehe
I hate wedges :)

But the best plan of attack is the heel forward 45+ degrees to even up the actual bevel...
Most of the real problems come from the old bevels, not the razor, it took a few hundred of them, and hours of work on each for me to learn this...
You can hone around these multiple bevels BTW but, the edge will NOT hold very long... the extreme heel forward stroke will even out the whole edge then life gets really easy...
Honest try it, you can usually feel the bumpity bump of the old bevels as you come across the stone...

I still start with the circles first...and normally use 1 layer of tape only, on real wedges, or worn concaves I might use two...

That's just one of the reasons once they discovered hollow grounding they pretty much stopped making true wedges.

So, before the recent advent of taping, how were wedges honed?

The obvious answer is that they just honed it without tape. However, the high prevalence of multiple bevels on old wedges makes me wonder how/why those multiple bevels arose? Were they lifting the spine?

Any ideas?

I can only guess that they were honed free hand like a knife w/o use of the spine. Some of the old razors I have hint at that as there was no hone wear near the spine. It's just another thing lost to history.

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Originally Posted by Joed

I can only guess that they were honed free hand like a knife w/o use of the spine. Some of the old razors I have hint at that as there was no hone wear near the spine. It's just another thing lost to history.

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I think that might make sense. Just as some knives are still honed freehand. If you do it enough, you get sort of a muscle memory to keep the same angle every time. Still i wouldn't mind to try to learn this method with razors. That's why tapes are for.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

So, before the recent advent of taping, how were wedges honed?

The obvious answer is that they just honed it without tape. However, the high prevalence of multiple bevels on old wedges makes me wonder how/why those multiple bevels arose? Were they lifting the spine?

Any ideas?

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What about like a metal jacket for the spine? I think I've seen some images here (and I forget the context) where a razor had like a C-shaped sleeve that you slid the spine into before honing. Maybe they used those.:shrug:

EDIT: Here's an image, but it's a newer razor so maybe this wasn't thought of until recently as well:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...dsc_0203ds.jpg

If you look way back in this forum you will find a rather extensive thread about "How Wedges were honed in the Past" Lee/Hoglahoo and I put in quite a bit of research in it...and found pretty much the same things

Damn! I had it but I lost it. With 4 layers of electrical tape on the spine I did 50 laps on the coarse side. The bevel was well established and I probably could have shaved with it right then and there. But NOOOOOOO! I had to peel of two layers of tape and do the pyramid starting at 15. After this, the edge was nowhere as keen as it was.

I think the ticket may just be repeat the same procedure and leave the 4 layers in place throughout the entire procedure, Thoughts?

Just a thought .
Do you have a loupe or microscope so you can see what's actually happening at the edge ?

Nope, not that high tech just yet, I should probably look one of them up before long.

I find even low (8x) magnification helps but I like a large field of view. Over 1" is good.

Awhile back I honed a frameback which I think is even worse then a wedge imho for getting a bevel set. I say the more tape the better, but Glen would know best here. I know the extra tape worked for me.

The worst honing experience I had as far as time put into the honing process was the Puma I recently honed, the reason was I had to flatten the edge to make it even and not frowning, so I had to start from scratch not even a factory bevel on there, that was a PITA with just a 1k.

good luck
David

Victory is mine! The 4 layer tape trick worked like a champ. No test shave yet but I can honestly say I've gotten great shaves from razors not this sharp.

Thanks for the skulls up on the framebacks I have one at a local antique place (a Le Coultre) that I've been stalking for a while. Not that you've necessarily convince me not to buy it but this will be a challenge if it's more of a PITA than this wedge. Then again, once I did it properly, the wedge wasn't all that bad.

Congrats! :beer1:

Its really great when it finally clicks, and the next time a razor like this comes along you'll know exactly how to handle it..!

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Originally Posted by Disburden

You should be able to get arm hair shaved during the first bevel step. If not, I would not move up on the stones.


Nun2sharp, do you remove tape after the bevel stage? You mentioned you "start" with four layers insinuating that you remove layers.

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Actually this means I may add tape as necessary, I have heard Sham say he has used up to 7 layers. Once the bevel is set, keep the tape on and move through your usual progressions, remove the tape when you are satisfied with the shave.

If you used tape for setting the edge and honing, would it also be recommended to use same amount of tape if you are just touching it up on a barber's hone when it starts pulling?

Thanks in advance,

Moe

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Actually this means I may add tape as necessary, I have heard Sham say he has used up to 7 layers. Once the bevel is set, keep the tape on and move through your usual progressions, remove the tape when you are satisfied with the shave.

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Kelly is right about number of tapes to use on true wedge blade. I don't think you will see true wedge which honed some kinda guiding tool. I am not sure the name of the tool.
But i do think in early 19 or late 18 th cent Some people did use special tool to put the edge to the true wedge blade.
I have to say i have seen only 3 blades with that type honing.
To hone that blade you should add as many layers of tape as you need to rich the bevel point.
(it will depend what thickness of the tool they used.)
I think at the moment knife people or chisel users do use similar tool.
what that tool does is saves the back of the blade but you do have perfect bevel set.
hope this clears your doubts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moe

If you used tape for setting the edge and honing, would it also be recommended to use same amount of tape if you are just touching it up on a barber's hone when it starts pulling?

Thanks in advance,

Moe

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touching up with barber hones answer will be yes.
but while stropping will depends on number of tapes . i think 3 layers of tape is the max after that you will need to put tape to strop.this is approximately.
will depends what type tape you have used thickness etc.