Need Honing Advice for Uneven Bevel (w/ pics)

Hi guys, I could use a little advice:
I 've taken in a razor to hone for a friend, made in PDRK, as a chance to practice my new honing skills. The blade is fairly straight and even, and doesn't seem to have any warps or crookedness. But it's got a couple issues. I want to tread very carefully because it's not my razor. When I first got it, I noticed it had a small frown, so I ground the edge down to a very slight smile (very slight) and recovered the bevel.... mostly. This is where the other issue is: the bevel is very uneven, but only on one side. At one point it almost seems to disappear The other side has an almost perfectly straight, even-width bevel. I'm guessing that the blade itself varies in thickness. (?!?)
I've tried to show this in the photos, with limited success. The first pic shows that even bevel, and the second shows the side with the un-even bevel (at the area by the pencil). And a flair in width near the tip.
It seems to be a sharp bevel at that area; shaves arm hair off the 8K pretty well.
Is the bevel too thin? Should I try adding more smile to the edge? Is there anything I can or need to do to widen the bevel? As it's not my razor, I don't want to do anything I can't undo but the goal is to get it shave ready.
Thanks guys!

What do you mean you ground it down?

Is the bevel totally set or no? If yes, it doesn't matter what the wear looks like.

Hi Holli!
By "ground down" I mean that I ran it vertically on edge on the skinny edge of my 1K hone until the profile of the edge had a slight smile. Then I honed it properly on 1k untill the bevel came back. Seemed like a good idea at the time; was that wrong to do?

As for the bevel's being set, I would say yes. I used felt-maker at the beginning (truth be told, that's how I found the frown) and it does shave arm hair equally well on either side.

I am personally not a fan of breadknifing, which is the term that seem to be applied to what you did, but I have seen others say they have done it and like it. But there are enough other threads about that, so no need to get into it here, right?

If the bevel is set and you can shave arm hairs all along the edge off the 1k, the sizes of the bevels are just cosmetic and you shouldn't worry about them.

Music to my ears, Holli. Thanks.

What i am seeing from picture is it doesn't look like bevel has been set where pencil pointed.
if that is correct then you need to do this.
take out tape.
all way.
Remember problem is not on the bevel ,problem is in the back of the blade in pencil pointed side.
you will need hone down location where is pencil pointed (from that point to the tip).
you can protect to toward to heel location by using small tape and rest part go head use 1k and great exact size of the bevel.(similar to heel). then take tape out and make at least 5-10 strokes without tape and even up whole edge(this is your coal). as soon as you rich it you can go head back and put whole length of the blade back on and continue hone the blade.
gl

Thanks Hi_bud_gl
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly .Do you mean that that I should put a small piece of tape on the edge at the heel? I can see how that would tip it up towards the tip. And honing it out that way would probably increase the smile of the blade wouldn't it? Probably not a bad thing.

NO Please Problem is not in your EDGE?
PROBLEM ON THE BACK OF THE BLADE.
You put tape where you see bevel set but on the back of the blade.
you never tape edge leave edge alone.
by putting the tape on the back you are protecting the edge where bevel already set.
if you have narrow hone you can do the job without tape but if you don't have it tape the back of the blade.
Let me try another way.
if you edge is 3 inch long and only 1 inch of it close to the heel has bevel set then use 1 inch long tape and put it exact same location on back of the blade.
Sorry not clean english.
hope this helps and clears.

Where hi bud gl is refferring to the "back of the blade". I believe he is referring to the "spine of the blade". Tape the spine near the heel over the length where the bevel is set.

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Originally Posted by Maskwa

Where hi bud gl is refferring to the "back of the blade". I believe he is referring to the "spine of the blade". Tape the spine near the heel over the length where the bevel is set.

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yes that is exactly right. i thought everyone calls back.oops

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

yes that is exactly right. i thought everyone calls back.oops

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Well, I believe back it is acceptable. In this case I thought it might help for clarity in your description of what you are suggesting to do.

I hope this is what you mean. (sorry for the bad pic)
The only other question i would have (if that's right) is; should the tape be on only one side? (the bad side)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

Hi Holli!
By "ground down" I mean that I ran it vertically on edge on the skinny edge of my 1K hone until the profile of the edge had a slight smile. Then I honed it properly on 1k untill the bevel came back. Seemed like a good idea at the time; was that wrong to do?

As for the bevel's being set, I would say yes. I used felt-maker at the beginning (truth be told, that's how I found the frown) and it does shave arm hair equally well on either side.

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I am a bit confused here. Breadknifing should not create a smile along the profile of the edge. It would seem you were lifting the toe and or heel while breadknifing?? I would not recommed doing so if it is the case.

OH Lordy... so much info, not enough memory...
I could swear I've read somewhere that all straights should have a faint curve to the blade, but there's no way I could find that particular thread again. I did do exactly that. I was trying to follow the contour of the sweep on the spine.


... I've just checked all my blades, and they all have a slight curve to the edge, some more than others, but still a slight curve.

Now I'm really confused...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

I hope this is what you mean. (sorry for the bad pic)
The only other question i would have (if that's right) is; should the tape be on only one side? (the bad side)

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you have put tape right . when you tape you tape both side of the spine.
Now what i noticed in your original post i think you have more problem then you realized.
your first action to ground out the edge make it even is wrong way to fix the frown blade.
anyway now you are in here and do next.
As i said early tape as you show and hone untaped spine until you will have straight edge .you should have bevel too.
Bevel may not be even at the moment dont worry about even bevel.
you need to have bevel which you can put edge on it.

after getting bevel take whole tape out and hone it until you will set bevel from tip to the heel.
i go head to say you will end up removing a lot metal to get that stage. this is because your grounding action in early stage of fixing the frown.
After you set your bevel on both side of the blade then you go head move up on your stone finish the edge.
Please note: you will spend a lot time on 1k to set bevel from heel to the tip. Don't get happy as soon as you see shiny bevel. you must make sure your hone contacts to the blade from heel to the tip. you can check this by watching the how water moves on front of your blade while you make your strokes.
should be same. water from heel to the tip on top of the blade. you kinda cut the water.
if bevel missing water in some parts then there is a still problem.
Lastly may be the most important. i wouldn't advise you to fix this blade if in fact it is not yours and you have never done so before.
i know how you will feel if you do something wrong.
Better let someone else do the job which is knows what is he doing.
you can buy cheap bay blades and train at first.

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

all straights should have a faint curve to the blade, but there's no way I could find that particular thread again. I did do exactly that.

... .

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My My You are right professionally honed blade should have heel and tip honed more then rest of the blade.
But please don't start to hone as pro when you just start to hone the blade.
It takes years to learn that.
PLEASE SEND THIS BLADE TO SOMEONE ELSE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

I could swear I've read somewhere that all straights should have a faint curve to the blade, but there's no way I could find that particular thread again.

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Here is a 1961 barber manual excerpt that discusses and illustrates the celebrated slight smile. It is one way to do it. Straight across is another. What you don't want is a concave bevel or frown. (looking at it from the side)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

My My You are right professionally honed blade should have heel and tip honed more then rest of the blade.
But please don't start to hone as pro when you just start to hone the blade.
It takes years to learn that.
PLEASE SEND THIS BLADE TO SOMEONE ELSE.

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Learn to do by doing....
It's not a valuable blade by any means, certainly not something I couldn't replace if I had to. Considering the shape it was in when I got it, it's already miles ahead. The friend who lent it to me is aware of my lack of honing experience and isn't expecting miracles.

I did hi_bud's tape trick and the bevel is now more even. Not perfect, but certainly wider at the narrow point than it was before. Then I got rid of all the tape and honed it till the bevel was set. The first thing I noticed was that there was a "vibration" on only the one side of the spine but this smoothed out as it wore a bit on the hone. I'm now still working on getting the bevel set all the way; there's a small area at the very heel that still needs a bit more work. It's almost there.
Thanks for the insight hi_bud, it never would have occurred to me that the problem was caused by the back of the blade.

Yeah! I did it! This one is as sharp as I've gotten a blade yet. The bevel came out a lot deeper and fairly even. It still has a narrow spot, but it's much wider than it was before. Even though it seemed sharp before I fixed it, it bore more resembalance to one of my chisels than the edge of a straight; hollow on one side and beveled on the other.

hi_bud_gl, even though I don't agree with your advice to send it out and have it done by someone else (my Mama didn't raise no quitters), I found your advice regarding the tape to correct for an uneven spine tremendously helpful. I hate to think how much time and energy i would have spent struggling with it.

So my next question would be, now that I've put a bunch of wear into the spine, and judging by the strange feed-back I was getting initialy, would it be worn closer to true? Will whoever hones it next have the same issues I did or will that problem diminish as the spine gets more wear?

It'll be a day before I can shave with it (whiskers have gotten awfully scarce around here lately) but I'll be sure to post back and tell everyone how it went.

Cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

OH Lordy... so much info, not enough memory...
I could swear I've read somewhere that all straights should have a faint curve to the blade, but there's no way I could find that particular thread again. I did do exactly that. I was trying to follow the contour of the sweep on the spine.


... I've just checked all my blades, and they all have a slight curve to the edge, some more than others, but still a slight curve.

Now I'm really confused...

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There are threads out there where people talk about their preferences for blades with slight smiles... Although some of my favorite razors have edges that are straight as an arrow, ending in a really nice, scary sharp point :D I would say that the only really big deal is when a blade has a frown... and we don't like frowny blades.:(

One thing I'd recommend for the future is that you shouldn't be at the 8k level when you are trying to deal with a problematic bevel (just one of my sweet rhymes). One of the biggest improvements in my honing happened when I made sure not to go to a higher grit stone until my bevel was set completely... and then I don't move to my finisher until the entire edge is properly honed at the mid-grit level... and so on and so on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

hi_bud_gl, even though I don't agree with your advice to send it out and have it done by someone else (my Mama didn't raise no quitters), I found your advice regarding the tape to correct for an uneven spine tremendously helpful. I hate to think how much time and energy i would have spent struggling with it.


Cheers!

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i had no idea who is the original owner of the blade.
In this case you knew the person and he was expecting the results.as a result you were ready for consequences.
Now if you do work for customers you better do what i asked.
Lastly
if you have done everything how i explained your problem should be almost resolve.
Next honing shouldn't be problem.
Congratulations and have fun.

Thanks guys. It's exactly that kind of advice I'm looking for. Next time I won't go so far knowing I've got an issue before I check in here.

As a journeyman carpenter, I fully understand the value of real-world experience, and the good judgement only experience can bring. I might not know a lot yet, except that I know I'm looking for a challenge. If this was easy, everyone would do it. If it was easy, I wouldn't bother. I fully intend to draw on the wealth of experience and judgment that SRP embodies, and look forward to learning from the fine gentlemen here.

:beer1:

Cheers!
-Chris

First I agree with hi bud gl and holli. You all have great coments but I think what you want to know is why this is happening is I correct? When I start a project I take knotice of the spines wear and the edges wear IMO they should have the same wear to make the honing easier not that it has to be, but the more wear on the spine the higher the bevel. I cant see with the tape in the way if the spine is different heal to tow. Next is the amount of pressure you are using there should be enough to keep the blade flat the more pressure you use the flatter the blade is when you pull or push on the stone which will cause a higher bevel.

It's funny how i came back to this old thread... referenced as a "disaster" in another recently resurrected thread. How gratifying to see how far I've come; 2 razors, a single borrowed razor and zero experience to a modest collection of both, and a passable hand on the hones... In my own defense I'd like to point out that it IMeverSHO, that I would consider it a raging success. I took a cheap razor that had a frown and a warp, didn't shave, and I made it shave. Not well, by my standards today, (it was only the second razor I'd ever honed) but certainly passable.
Of note is that I didn't do it alone, most of my modest collection of razors and hones and, most importantly, the advice and guidance I've received has come from this, and other great communities.

My advice to all aspiring Honsters: Don't be discouraged; with patience, dedication, great advice, not a little investment of time and money, we can all graduate from noobdom.

Hone on Noobs!:mace:

Thanks for the tape advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

NO Please Problem is not in your EDGE?
PROBLEM ON THE BACK OF THE BLADE.
You put tape where you see bevel set but on the back of the blade.
you never tape edge leave edge alone.
by putting the tape on the back you are protecting the edge where bevel already set.
if you have narrow hone you can do the job without tape but if you don't have it tape the back of the blade.
Let me try another way.
if you edge is 3 inch long and only 1 inch of it close to the heel has bevel set then use 1 inch long tape and put it exact same location on back of the blade.
Sorry not clean english.
hope this helps and clears.

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So the purpose of the tape on one end is to hone down the part of the spine that is too high? Or to just add a bevel to the high spine side? Or both?:confused:

I have no idea. All I know is that it worked for me.
I think it just changes the geometry of the blade slightly. Enough to help develop the bevel and at the same time add a bit of wear to the spine at the problem area.

Maybe send Hi_Bud_GL a PM. He's the one who solved this problem. I was just following instructions.:)

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Originally Posted by jeffegg2

So the purpose of the tape on one end is to hone down the part of the spine that is too high? Or to just add a bevel to the high spine side? Or both?:confused:

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I think you've got it!