Why Pyramid?

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Originally Posted by mmm_shavingcream

Excellent images in that document, and definitley a good read. The pictures lend to my original thoughts that a 4K would scratch up a nice 8K finish. However the edge required to best cut hairs in the facial enviorment may include the 4K groves. As we are not just cutting hairs, but also scraping away some skin (hopefully not too much) in a soapy medium. I guess there are a few factors to consider that may also affect the performance of an edge.

I may be wrong but will too sharp of an edge lend to razor burn? Or is that due to technique, like too much pressure or too steep of a shaving angle?

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A 4K grit really has no place in keeping a razor keen. It's used to set up an edge on a dull razor, and that's it. Once the edge is keen the 4K can do little good. If you look at the old barber's manual, it speaks in terms of one hone and a strop. That probably would have been a fine to extra fine hone, because the manual specifically warns against using a hone that's too fast. So, traditionally the edge would be maintained with better than an 8K hone. I know of no reference that recommends aas coarse a hone as 4K for maintenance. My thinking is that in time the 8K hone will wear away all remnants of the 4K hone striations and then you'll have only 8K striations. That will be the steady state of your razor, and I don't know why you would ever go back to 4K unless you had a mishap.

Similarly if you were maintaining your razor with a Swaty hone or paste, you would end up with an even finer scratch pattern. That's what the barbers had.

I can't prove it but I believe that the exfolliation is a slight abrasive effect not slicing off a fine layer of skin. My reason for this is that the str8 gives you a kind of skin smoothness that I call afterglow. You don't get that with a DE or Feather str8 razor, even when you shave equally close. The reason, I believe, is that the str8 requires a little pressure, whereas the other razors do not. THat little pressure is doing the exfolliation. For some new shavers it causes a slight irritation that goes away after a while. I have experienced what I call overshaving with a sharp DE. That's when you shave off a fine layer of skin, exposing very sensitive skin. The area becomes very sensitive to touch for a short time. That's not the same as the exfolliation you get with a str8.

You should not get razor burn from a sharp edge (no matter how sharp) if you use it correctly. In fact, the sharper the edge the more you can reduce the pressure and the less likely you are to get burn. That doesn't mean you can't nick yourself. Razor burn is an abrasive effect. It can come from too much pressure or using the razor at such a stepp angle to the sking that you're scraping, like with a furniture scraper. With a sharp edge you're more likely to overshave, as I described above. Sometimes that's mistaken for burn.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

A 4K grit really has no place in keeping a razor keen. It's used to set up an edge on a dull razor, and that's it. Once the edge is keen the 4K can do little good.

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This is just insanity, Joe. While it's true that most razors can go a long while before needing a trip to the 4k, others (like Ed's Wolstenholm) NEED the 4k and less of the 8k.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

If you look at the old barber's manual, it speaks in terms of one hone and a strop. That probably would have been a fine to extra fine hone, because the manual specifically warns against using a hone that's too fast. So, traditionally the edge would be maintained with better than an 8K hone.

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You might be right, but there's a lot of assuming going on there. Just because it says "the hone" and "the strop" doesn't mean there wouldn't often be more than one. In fact the variety of old barber hones available wuld refute such thinking.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I know of no reference that recommends aas coarse a hone as 4K for maintenance.

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Except all over this forum.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

My thinking is that in time the 8K hone will wear away all remnants of the 4K hone striations and then you'll have only 8K striations. That will be the steady state of your razor, and I don't know why you would ever go back to 4K unless you had a mishap.

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If that's the case, which I doubt, then why not just do 20 laps on the 8k and have done with it? :thinking: Or 100 for that matter? Then you're sure to eliminate all those peske 4k striations.

X

You don't know that anything needs the 4K. Some will tell you that an edge can last indefinitely if refreshed as necessary. That would be less likely with a razor used only occasionally- microscopic rust. You really don't know what happened to the Westholm. One line of thought has it that if you strop without giving the mocroserrations a chance recover they will eventually break from fatigue. Micro rusting could have a similar effect. Both could require a significant amount of honing to restore the microserrations. My point is that you don't know what could have happened to the edge to require the honing.

I used to go to an old time barber that carried a barbers hone and used to swipe it occasionally. He didn't do major honing, but sent them out to a service. He sent some out once a month. I don't think it was the same ones. I've done a little historic research and the traditional way of using the razor was to touch up when the strop could no longer restore the razors sharpness. Some guys never honed, but sent out their razors just like my barber. He did it so he could concentrateon his profession which was not honing.

I really don't understand what you're doing with the 4K. Please understand that no amount of honing will eliminate striations. They just keep getting finer as you go to finer grits, and the edge gets sharper. There's no magic there. It's just traditional sharpening as is done on any edge. Exactly how do you get an edge shaving sharp without making it sharp? Why not shave with a butter knife? It's amazingly smooth. It just doesn't remove anything.

If you look under a microscope you can see that a 4K leaves the edge fairly uneven. How do you get rid of that? That's what causes discomfort. And it's not only the edge. You also have a rougher bevel. The bevel rubs against the skin as you shave.

The reason you don't do umpteen laps with the 8K or a 12K is simple. It's too much work. But once you have the edge to the point that occasional refreshing with a fine hone will keep it sharp indefinitely, why do you need a coarser one? In the long run you always do the same amount of honing. it's just a question of whether you do a little at a time or let the razor deteriorate too far (or damage the edge) and have to do a lot all at once.

One more thing. The great experiment is a case in point. How long did the razors go before failing? Then, you certainly needed a good hone. But what if each razor was refreshed when it just started pulling a little? You might never need more honig, barring any mishap.

I guess what I'm saying is that with each refresh you're honing just enough to restore keenness. So, if nothing goes wrong, why would you need any more? I have razors I use regularly that haven't needed anything more than refreshing for almost a year.

I've been sitting here reading this thread and can't help but think that when you start to over analyze something you kind of lose the big picture.

I have to agree with Joe in this matter. I think in general if you have your usual rotation and use either a coticule or 8K or even 12 K stone when they start to deteriorate thats all you ever need. I know from my own experience all I ever use now is the coticule to maintain my razors. It does a fantastic job and the only time I ever use the 4K is either for an Eboy special or if I damage one of my razors with a tiny nick.

Its nice to look at sem photos and talk about theory but for most of use what we are concerned with is how do I get this razor to give me a super shave. Personally I don't care if there are 4K striations or 8K striations or scratch counts or other mumbo jumbo.

So my point here is lets talk about practical applications here. Alot of the guys here have problems enough just learning to strop and hone properly. Do we have to confuse the issue with all this theory. If a system works then it works, it shouldn't have to pass muster with the scientific method.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

So my point here is lets talk about practical applications here. Alot of the guys here have problems enough just learning to strop and hone properly. Do we have to confuse the issue with all this theory. If a system works then it works, it shouldn't have to pass muster with the scientific method.

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If the pyramid system works then we should not discount it, but I certainly wouldn't consider it a waste of time to try to determine exactly what factors best contribute to a good shave.

Please don't stop looking into this stuff, it's fascinating :)

So. . . I don't want to discount your observations, Joe. I mostly agree with you, but you're talking as if I share the same experiences as you.

When I was honing up the ForestryProf's Wostenholm, it wouldn't pass my thumb test or my hanging hair test. When I sent it lightly down the 4k it got there. When I sent it down the 8k side 5 times it wouldn't pass. Once on the 4k and once on th 8k and it did! That's the way it happened. I repeated it the same way again after reshaping the blade! This experience doesn't fit in with your insistences.

I also have trouble with another of your assertions, that your hair is too fine to pass the hanging hair test. Although I suppose it might be possible, my hair is pretty damn fine and I CAN get my hairs to pass after more careful work than it takes to cut my lady's hair. I don't want to start another discussion. I only mean to reemphasise why I have difficulty based on my experiences, agreeing with you. No discussion can supercede that for me.

Bigspender's right right though. The real test is the shave and your claim is easily refutable. Take a good shaver and send it along the 8k a bunch and tell me if it's better or worse. 8k not a good enough finisher for you? Go for a 12k. In fact . . . that's just what I'm gonna do!

My Böker's in need of some refining anyhow so I'm going to run it back and forth along the 12k Sharpton and see what it says to me. You ain't heard the last o' me! :cool:

X

So here's what happened first:

I had shaved with my Böker last on Sun Day you might recall if you read the SOTD thread. It was beginning to dull before that and so I took it to a small pyramid followed by conservative use of the 12,000 Sharpton stone, then liberal use of the 0.5 micron chromium oxide stick and conservative use of the 0.25 Diamond Paste. The resultant shave was a bit scratchy.

This morning I stropped and the razor ever so slightly reluctantly poped one of my hairs, the very fine ones I have on my head.

Then it was 100 gentle trips along the 12,000 hone, strop and hang the hair again. This time it popped without restraint and the resultant shave was less scratchy.

I will only be shaving with this razor this week (and maybe next) and running 100 laps on the 12k each time before I do. I'll keep posting.

X

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Originally Posted by xman

When I was honing up the ForestryProf's Wostenholm, it wouldn't pass my thumb test or my hanging hair test. When I sent it lightly down the 4k it got there. When I sent it down the 8k side 5 times it wouldn't pass. Once on the 4k and once on th 8k and it did! That's the way it happened. I repeated it the same way again after reshaping the blade! This experience doesn't fit in with your insistences.

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My only comment here is that you really don't know what was going on with that razor. I have had it happen where a razor loses sharpness after going to the 8K. Under the microscope I noticed that the edge seemed to crumble, getting more uneven when I went to the 8K. It turns out that the edge was oxidized and going down to a finer edge weakened it enough to collapse. I then took it down to good metal with a 4K and came back to the 8K to finish on good metal and everything was fine. The point is you can't really reach a conclusion unless you know what you had and what you did. In my case you would have reached the same conclusion you did here.

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I also have trouble with another of your assertions, that your hair is too fine to pass the hanging hair test.

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I have gotten shave ready razors (more than one) from Lynn, David Uthe and John Crowley which shaved wonderfully, but none ever passed the arm hair test. I have never had a razor pass the test for me. Not even a fresh Feather blade passes the test. They all passed the thumb test with flying colors. What conclusion would you reach?

I'd be innterested in what happens with the Boker, but I'd also be interested in what tests you did, such as microscopic observation, that led you to your conclusion.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I've been sitting here reading this thread and can't help but think that when you start to over analyze something you kind of lose the big picture.

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You won't get any argument from me on that. But I llike to know what's going on. Sometimes you can do it with a simple test, but sometimes it requires more, and other times you even need to do a little analysis. My opinion is that when you get to that point it has to go beyond theorizing and has to be based on repeateable, well understood tests.

I sympathize with the new guys, but I think it's a disservice to them to fill their heads with theory. On the other hand if you have a technique or observation that's well understood we can all benefit from knowing about it. It's unfortunate if it goes above their heads or confuses them, but then we're all learning from each other.