What am I seeing under magnification?

I'm working on a beater that I bought to learn on. It's an "Improved Eagle" that had some rust and pitting. All of that is gone and I'm on the 1k hone setting the bevel right now. I've gotten a couple of other razors shave ready and have started to figure out what the edge should look like. this one is showing me something I'm not sure about.

I can see a clear bevel, including a defined starting point where the blade goes from flat to angled (I'm sure there's a term for this). beyond this I can see the scratches made by the hone, angling to one side caused by the x-stroke. Beyond that I can see a bright line...I know this is a good thing. BUT..beyond the bright line is a rough gray area. Kind of hard to describe that...looks almost bubbly, like styrofoam.

Is the bubbly area a wire edge? Are those microchips? I assume not the latter, because they do not look serrated.

I'm also assuming (there's that word again) that all of this means more time on the 1k to get rid of them and to get to better metal. Oui? Non?

TIA

Goog

Hopefully the edge has not melted.. Some of the more experieced hone- meisters can tell you. But that's why we experiemnt. :shrug:

If it has that porous swiss cheese effect it may be rotted steel or inclusions(air pockets) keep honing until this crap is gone and then move up the progression. Each step of the way keep checking for more of this as the steel is abraded away, hopefully sooner or later you will get to good steel.

I don't know if I would call it swiss cheese. More like a layer of fine material. Unfortunately, I cant' photograph with my radio shack microscope.

Goog

What magnification are you at????

It may be that this is an edge that is just a bit out of focus.
In an ideal world you want the surface of the bevel
to be perpendicular to the optics.

Try racking the focus up and down a smidgen. It could also
be a bit of a burr rolling up. If you think it is a burr check both
sides. If the bevel is uneven you could have a burr on one
side then the other...

Find some micro pictures and compare. There are some in the archives and on Tim Zowada's website.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What magnification are you at????

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100x

this line added because the forum told me that "100x" is too short a reply. Maybe I should have said, "100x, dammit?"

Goog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Find some micro pictures and compare. There are some in the archives and on Tim Zowada's website.

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Do you mean Zowada Custom Knives ? I looked there and didn't see any.

Goog

I hate to state the obvious, but pics would really help me here.

Okey doke. here you go. you realize that I can't take a picture of the magnification, right?

I just added a second pic, better lighting

When I used the RS I found a lot of different images. So much depends on how you hold it, how you look through, the room lighting, etc.

I'd suggest backing off the 100 to around 70-80, or just 60 as low as it goes.

Most often when seeing that light strip on the edge, sometimes a broken streak, other times continuous, or on both sides intermittently... after a good stropping it would disappear.

Whatever you are seeing beyond that may not really be there depending on how clear an image you are viewing; or maybe the streak of light we both think we see is not the same thing.

edit: looks like maybe a slight frown near the tail feathers

I'd suggest stropping and shaving that will put what you see in a clear light.

Ok here is a suggestion, back away from the lens and nobody gets hurt :D

Set your bevel by "feel", get it so it feels right, then look though the lens, You need to work your way through this "test" just like you do every other one,,, take it one step at a time, Bevel, Sharpen, Polish, Finish...work the stones till it feels right then look to confirm it...

BTW the most sure fire test I know of for a burr or rolled edge is a pin/needle...
Gently set the point of a pin on the face of the blade and move it toward the edge , check multiple points and both sides,,, If the pin catches at the edge you for sure without a doubt have a problem there... there is no interpretation for this test, it is a go/no go test...unlike the TNT or the TPT which takes practice too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

When I used the RS I found a lot of different images. So much depends on how you hold it, how you look through, the room lighting, etc.

I'd suggest backing off the 100 to around 70-80, or just 60 as low as it goes.

Most often when seeing that light strip on the edge, sometimes a broken streak, other times continuous, or on both sides intermittently... after a good stropping it would disappear.

Whatever you are seeing beyond that may not really be there depending on how clear an image you are viewing; or maybe the streak of light we both think we see is not the same thing.

edit: looks like maybe a slight frown near the tail feathers

I'd suggest stropping and shaving that will put what you see in a clear light.

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I'm not that far into it. I'm still at the bevel setting stage right now. This blade is afraid of butter.

No frowns. If anything very slight smile.

Goog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ok here is a suggestion, back away from the lens and nobody gets hurt :D

Set your bevel by "feel", get it so it feels right, then look though the lens, You need to work your way through this "test" just like you do every other one,,, take it one step at a time, Bevel, Sharpen, Polish, Finish...work the stones till it feels right then look to confirm it...

BTW the most sure fire test I know of for a burr or rolled edge is a pin/needle...
Gently set the point of a pin on the face of the blade and move it toward the edge , check multiple points and both sides,,, If the pin catches at the edge you for sure without a doubt have a problem there... there is no interpretation for this test, it is a go/no go test...unlike the TNT or the TPT which takes practice too

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As luck would have it, I have sewing needles in my desk (what...doesn't everyone?). Passed that test, no snags at all.

I reckon it's just keep going on the 1k for a while. My big concern is the state of the metal. There was serious rust on the blade at the start, but not on the edge (see pics). My worry is that I will have to remove too much material, or that the blade will never take a great edge. I guess I'll stick with patience.

Goog

Honestly I very very very rarely ever use more than a 40x loupe...

I love Jimmy's saying "If you don't like the looks of the edge, use less magnification my honing will get better" or something close to that...:rofl2::rofl2:

Magnification helps, as you are learning and it shows a ton of mistakes, but as you get better and better at this, you will use it less and less.... except to gloat over your edges and post pics of them if possible :beer1:

Magnification has helped a lot, as a beginner. I started by comparing my edges to professionally done blades so I could see what I am aiming for. I understand what you are saying about doing this by feel. This just give me one more piece of feedback.

Goog

Goog, I will be down Saturday. If you would like to meet up somewhere, we can get together and I'd be glad to take a look at this razor and see what you're talking about. PM me to let me know, and I'd be glad to meet up with ya. Will give you a chance to see my new razor and coticule too ;)

PS: as Glen said, once you get the feel for it, you will shy away from the the microscope. It will come with time :)

Don't know if this helps but first pic is an incomplete bevel with a wire from initial grinding. There is a grey line as you mention.
Second pic is how it should look when the bevel meets.

This is true, the less magnification I use the better my honing is. :p Kidding aside, I do use it but what Glen said in post # 14 in this thread is right on the money IMO. The TNT followed by the TPT and the arm hair when you get to that point. I will check the edge for micro chipping or worse before I start and I will check every now and again as I am progressing through the process. Way less than when I first started to hone. Actually now I basically check with magnification when I start and when I finish. Sometimes only when I start. :shrug: I am not looking for a simonized edge .... I just want one that shaves good. :D

I appreciate the pic, Oz. I'm not seeing that, so it doesn't appear to be a wire edge.

I've got it, my microscope is SO powerful, I'm seeing individual carbon molecules!:rolleyes:

Goog

Possibly a "bubbly styrofoam" appearance is some corrosion that needs to be honed out. Just aim for a clean bevel but even a couple of microchips won't prevent a nice shave providing they are "micro" :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

I'm not that far into it. I'm still at the bevel setting stage right now. This blade is afraid of butter.

No frowns. If anything very slight smile.

Goog

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Ahh, wish I had picked up on that first. could have saved me some typing.

For real, I see no smile only a clipped toe. If you set the edge vertically on the flat hone with some back light you may see what I am seeing or the photo is distorting the true shape.

When I find out blades to practicing honing on in junk shops, etc, I use a trick I learned from someone on this website. I take the razor and run it, without any pressure at all, on the bottom of a juice/ drinking glass. This insures that when you're going to start honing you're going to use newer steel. Bart from coticule.be does the same thing before he starts to hone his razors on his coticules. Any kind of bad corrided metal at the edge of the blade should be wiped out easier this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

When I find out blades to practicing honing on in junk shops, etc, I use a trick I learned from someone on this website. I take the razor and run it, without any pressure at all, on the bottom of a juice/ drinking glass. This insures that when you're going to start honing you're going to use newer steel. Bart from coticule.be does the same thing before he starts to hone his razors on his coticules. Any kind of bad corrided metal at the edge of the blade should be wiped out easier this way.

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Disturben I dont think it will speed the removal rusties. The glass will dull the edge completely along the length, so that when it returns we can be sure the new complete full length sharpness is all new

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

Disturben I dont think it will speed the removal rusties. The glass will dull the edge completely along the length, so that when it returns we can be sure the new complete full length sharpness is all new

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you may be right, I am not too sure on the subject. I know when Bart explained to me that he dulls on glass every time he hones he is doing it to ensure that he is beveling on "new steel" so the blade doesn't have burrs or imperfections at the very edge. I've used this method every time I have bought old razors in a shop and it works well.

I've never spoken to Bart directly about it, but my understanding from reading all the stuff he's written is that the edge removal is not to get to fresh steel, but to ensure that the edge you feel when testing is your new edge, and that you aren't making a new secondary bevel away from the edge.