Electrical tape...Multiple layers?

Ok, I have not been honeing that long. Im am Useing norton 220/1000 4000/8000 On razors I have honed I have used the 1000 to set the bevel and starting at 10 or 15 laps on my pyrmid on the 4000/8000 then finishing up on a Ravens Barbers hone then stropping on leather, with pleasing results.
I do use electrical tape on the spine, to prevent hone wear to the spine. But I have read in previos threads guys using 2 or 3 layers of of electrical tape on the spine and removing a layer at a time as they proceed through their honeing process, as some tactical manover to hone a difficult razor. This I do not understand why you would need to do this? And how would you determine if you needed to do this. I have numerous razors I would like to get honed up. And if this tacktic is a good I would like to know how and why. Any help would be appreicated.
Thanks Tony

I can't answer for what everyone else is doing, but I can tell you what I do I use 1 layer of tape on every single razor unless someone specifically asks me not to...
The only time I use the 3-2-1 drop, is if I did serious restoration on the edge and had to Breadknife it, other than that 1 layer from start to finish... Also one thing to keep in mind if you decide to use tape is to change it out before each honing stage... IE: for you after the 1k, the after the 4k, then after the 8k..
Yes I know I have a slight bit of OCD but it keeps things "straight" (pun intended)

Well at least this is a topic everyone agrees on. :banghead: Kidding aside, IME, and only IMO .... I started with one layer of tape because I was worried about wearing the spine when I began honing. I continued with that for about a year and began experimenting with honing without tape. Using a micrometer to measure a spine on a razor with no hone wear at the start I found that after setting a bevel and doing pyramids and finishing there was no measurable difference in the spine measurement from that session.

Since then I don't use tape unless I have a specific reason. Three layers of tape might be used on an old Sheffield wedge to increase the honing angle. The primary purpose being to decrease the amount of steel needing removal and create a narrower bevel.

If you have one or more large chips to remove than tape will protect the spine until you've gotten to a place where your chips are gone and you can begin normal bevel setting. If it is a long honing session the tape will wear and may need to be replaced every so often to maintain the same angle. This didn't occur to me when I used it routinely but Utopian pointed it out to me.

Some guys, Tim Zowada being one, like to finish a razor and than add tape to create a double bevel. They feel that gives a more durable edge. Of course on a decorated spine or a Damascus blade tape is good to protect the finish. Other than that or in the case of a stubborn wedge as noted above I don't use it anymore. YMMV.

The only times I tape are to protect fancy spines or when I hone my Zowada's in which case I use 3 layers of tape.

I've had success both with and without tape...still learning the ropes here. I have one blade that is still absolutely befulddes me. A couple of honemeisters I e-mail with both recommended several layers of tape, but said to take it off after bevel setting. Nothing about peeling off as you go.

One thing I've noticed, the razor does glide nicer with the tape on the coarser stones. For that reason, I like tape.

Goog

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Originally Posted by Brando

But I have read in previos threads guys using 2 or 3 layers of of electrical tape on the spine and removing a layer at a time as they proceed through their honeing process, as some tactical manover to hone a difficult razor This I do not understand why you would need to do this? And how would you determine if you needed to do this. I have numerous razors I would like to get honed up. And if this tacktic is a good I would like to know how and why. Any help would be appreicated.
Thanks Tony

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To answer your question .
What is a difficult razor? Most likely Wedges.
How you will find out? you will see if you wont put couple layers of tape you will hone whole surface(no hallow surface on the blade) of the blade.
tactic is good or bad?
some people likes some don't.
As your primary hones are Nortons and 1k Norton will eat the spine very fast. As you using 1 layer of tape really not bad idea.
hope this helps.

I always tape, unless specifically asked not to.
If I have to work on a a razor that has been honed with no tape then I go on and hone with no tape.

I honed a couple of wedges just not long ago. I always start on 3 layers. I work my way down to 1 layer. Why just incase the bevel becomes over sized . It can be dread ful if not and you end up with half the razor with a big ugly bevel. One or no layers gives better sahve as the angle of bevel is much better . Giving a smoother shave

+1 to Glens comments. I use a layer of tape on all my razors, and only use more if I'm setting a tough bevel, one with chips for example.

Once the "pre-bevel" is set with two or three layers of tape, I drop down to one layer and set a true bevel and then use one layer of tape until I'm done on the hones.

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I honed a couple of wedges just not long ago. I always start on 3 layers. I work my way down to 1 layer. Why just incase the bevel becomes over sized . It can be dread ful if not and you end up with half the razor with a big ugly bevel. One or no layers gives better sahve as the angle of bevel is much better . Giving a smoother shave

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Gary i cannot believe what are you saying?
how in the world ?

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One or no layers gives better sahve as the angle of bevel is much better .

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would you explain this?

I always use one layer of tape on my normal razors (hollow) because I have a norton 4/8K and it can eat my spines fast. On a wedge blade I would use two or three pieces depending on the angle of the spine on the hone (Should be flat without tape, etc).

Simple, really.

As mentioned earlier I only use tape when I have damege to remove. Otherwise it's a no tape zone here.

So what did the old timers do before they could run to Ace Hardware and pick up a roll of 3M #33 (10,000 volts per wrap)?

Another question, as it runs counter intuitively for me: why reduce the number of layers of tape during the honing process, which would elevate the edge off the hone, rather than add layers which would keep the edge in contact with the hone?

I just picked up a near wedge straight on e-bay and had to tape the spine with 4 layers of elect tape to set a nice bevel. I kept the tape on the blade thru 1k 5k 8k 12k and then removed the tape and stropped it on newspaper, iam no honemister but it works for me.

I have never heard of removing tape layers while moving up the grit scale on the hones, that's confusing to me also. I keep the same amount of tape the whole way up until the stropping step.
EDIT: a question; what does tape do to a razor if you used it for say...ten years on a razor? Is this going to cause issue with stone contact?

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Originally Posted by Disburden

I have never heard of removing tape layers while moving up the grit scale on the hones, that's confusing to me also. I keep the same amount of tape the whole way up until the stropping step.
EDIT: a question; what does tape do to a razor if you used it for say...ten years on a razor? Is this going to cause issue with stone contact?

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How much is the razor being honed ? I no longer use tape except for damascus blades, decorated spines or certain restores. OTOH I did use tape for over a year on every razor I honed but I have one heck of a large rotation. So if a guy has one razor and hones it with tape over many years it will make for a steeper honing angle. Whether that angle would eventually become a problem would depend on how steep it became ..... I suppose. In measuring spines before and after honing (bevel set to finish) I found little of no change in the measurement before and after. This is of course in one honing session per razor.

I am glad I used tape for the time that I did because I had learned pressure and stroke over that first year. When I saw flattened spines on vintage razors I feared that a few honing sessions would do that to a blade. With correct pressure and stroke it takes years and many sessions to wear a razor down to that extent .... IMHO. There is a different feel on the hones when tape isn't used and I found that once I got used to it I preferred it. BTW, Utopian pointed out to me, back when I did use tape, that it is a good idea to change the tape between stones within a progressive honing session since it wears slightly and will subtly change the honing angle.

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Originally Posted by Bruce

So what did the old timers do before they could run to Ace Hardware and pick up a roll of M #33 (10,000 volts per wrap)?

Another question, as it runs counter intuitively for me: why reduce the number of layers of tape during the honing process, which would elevate the edge off the hone, rather than add layers which would keep the edge in contact with the hone?

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Originally Posted by Dis burden

I have never heard of removing tape layers while moving up the grit scale on the hones, that's confusing to me also. I keep the same amount of tape the whole way up until the stropping step.
EDIT: a question; what does tape do to a razor if you used it for say...ten years on a razor? Is this going to cause issue with stone contact?

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We think they used a Spine guide of some sort on the real wedges, we have found some evidence of it ... Also my opinion is that most of the bad hone wear came from Barber's hones and amateurs, rather than stones and professional Cutlers...

You are missing what we are saying on the 3-2-1 drop down,,, That is all done on one stone it is for restoration, NOT honing per se, don't confuse the two like people did with breadknifing... You are setting a pre-bevel and down into the actual bevel then proceeding from that point with 1 or no layers of tape...The higher angle concentrates the honing to the very edge taking out bad steel faster... Now some people stay with that higher angle it really doesn't matter... Keep in mind that on a 6/8 size razor each layer of tape changes the angle about 3/4 of one degree... If you go back the the Angle Measurement thread you will find that angles range from 12-22 easily and possibly even more, so considering that the average angle that we measured is 16 then you have plenty of room to play around... Which also brings up the weak argument of "It changes the factory set angle" I seriously doubt anyone of us can tell the difference between 5 layers of tape in a blind test, let alone one layer.... Next meet up someone should try out out on two matched razors...

It always boils down to the same thing, tape, or no tape, do want you want, but if you do it , do it consistantly...

I am on the agree with not taping team unless you are taping when you need to remove a lot of steel from an edge or to protect a Damascus pattern or a fancy spine.

When you tape on a razor, specifically a wedge that has uneven and excessive hone or grinding on the spine that is in different places, ie, heel, middle or toe and then different on both sides of the razor, a layer of tape will only mimic the faults already in the spine and you will end up with a bevel that reflects the damage in the spine. Even with significant honing, it is pretty hard to get a decent bevel here. You can add up to 4 layers of tape on a razor and it will still reflect some of the uneven wear on the spine, although it will be to a less degree. You have to really watch this in your bevels as you are honing. When removing steel or resetting a bevel in this manner and when starting on a 220 grit stone, you do need to change the tape frequently as you will see it wearing through layers pretty quickly. The trick if you want to tape like this is to put enough layers of tape on the razor to minimize the effect of the hone wear on the spine and create a mini-bevel that will be consistent across the edge.

You guys have fun with this.........:)

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Bruce

So what did the old timers do before they could run to Ace Hardware and pick up a roll of 3M #33 (10,000 volts per wrap)?

Another question, as it runs counter intuitively for me: why reduce the number of layers of tape during the honing process, which would elevate the edge off the hone, rather than add layers which would keep the edge in contact with the hone?

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Well Bruce, I think that the old barbers didn't care about that because those were their everyday tools: they didn't see them as part of their collection; I got a couple of Filarmonicas from an old barber and they are evenly wore on the spine side. In these blades I use one layer of tape during the honing process...

Cheers!!!

I just honed a english wedge razor. When I used 3 layers of tape the bevel was huge so I moved up to 5 still the bevel was still quiet big. To sum up in order to get a nice bevel that was sharp enought I ended up using 10 layers of tape. Huge mistake?

Well, with that many layers of tape you have to deal with a large "squish" factor. Makes it very hard to judge if you are maintaining even pressure and angle.

Well I was really mad at the razor, the bevel was insanely big and it would not get sharp. I now have a nice sharp and small bevel, my only worry is about the strop not touching the edge now.

In my defence the tape I am currently using is twice thinner than the previous tape I used. To give you an idea if you pull it with a little strength it will deform.

If you have managed to get a shave ready razor, than good on you! If I remember correctly the advice for stropping a blade that was honed like that is to use a little more slack in your hanging strop. Hopefully someone a little more knowledgable will be along to either confirm or deny this.