Too Sharp

There has been some talk in the past that a razor can get too sharp. I was of the opinion that there was no such thing as 'too sharp'. I recently over sharpened a blade on some very fine grit hones and they seemed to lose their 'teeth'. I say 'seemed' because I don't have a microscope to prove what my thumb test was feeling.

There was also a mention in a recent post that the type of steel we're used to on our razors has a minimum size of 0.35 microns or something of that nature. If this is true then that would explain why these ultra fine grits, including 0.25 micron diamond paste, have tendancy to ruin or over sharpen the edge.

My question is; is there a molecular minimum size that will create the teeth/striations/fins and anything smaller only smooths them away or are we deluded by this?

X

This whole notion of a razor being too sharp or overhoned I think is the wrong terminology. If you hone a razor enough you'll turn it into a toothpick, now thats overhoning.

I think once the edge reaches a certain point at which its honed to perfection from there on its just being destroyed and I would rather say the edge is being ruined not "too sharp". Too much of anything is a bad thing. A starving man can overeat himself to death or drink so much water you'll die from that also. Its all a matter of excess.

I think when you say too sharp and overhoned many get the idea that gee, its so good what I've done here that it won't give me a good shave. We just need to tell the dude hey, you ruined your edge.

X, I know there are a couple of recent threads that go into some depth regarding the toothy vs. polished conundrum. I know that many knife sharpeners believe that the toothiness of an edge can be lost to over polishing with fine stones. It's a bit easier to talk about how this affects the skin of a tomato than it is for closely shaving a face. A toothy edge is superior for slicing resiliant tomato skins with all things being equal, but take a highly polished edge with a more accute bevel and you may get similar results. It is somewhat generally accepted that a very fine toothy edge is superior for fineley slicing protein with minimal surface damage. It's also generally accepted that a push cut with no slicing motion is better accomplished with a very thin and highly polished blade (microtome blade). One would think that the shaving stroke, being a push cut, would lend itself better to a polished edge with a very accute bevel. This would logically lead us to the "no such thing as too sharp" conclusion. However, we can clearly glean from many posts about the Feather Razor that there might be a degree of sharpness that is unacceptable for all but the most skilfull shavers. Well, I gotta go get a green beer now.

The term "to sharp" has usually been used to refer to an edge that is very unforgiving, such as the feather blades. When the edge is that sharp you also will slice right thru any minute bumps on your face. You don't feel anything, you just notice the red spot. And don't you dare make a mistake while shaving!:)

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Originally Posted by Korndog

...It's also generally accepted that a push cut with no slicing motion is better accomplished with a very thin and highly polished blade (microtome blade). One would think that the shaving stroke, being a push cut, would lend itself better to a polished edge with a very accute bevel. This would logically lead us to the "no such thing as too sharp" conclusion...

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Hi all,

that is exactly my opinion and experience.

I don't believe in the tooth theory as far as razors are concerned, because I never try to establish teeth, I always hone in an X-pattern, but switch the direction regularly, so I will have rhombic striations on the edge that will rule out teeth. I mostly polish the blade as well as possible and get great results. I even don't use the pyramid technique, my usual steps are:
1000 King stone with water,
6000 King stone with water,
8000 King stone with water,
Blue Belgian coticule with lather,
plain leather strop (I don't use pasted strops).

This works on any straight for me.

I get great results: HHT and great shaves.

So, are teeth a myth?

Best regards
Martin

P. S. Does anybody know how DE blades are honed? I think I saw one tv program where they were honed in the direction of the edge, not perpendicular as with a straight, so no teeth are possible, but my memory may be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Martin Adler

So, are teeth a myth?

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Yes, they are, in my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by X

There was also a mention in a recent post that the type of steel we're used to on our razors has a minimum size of 0.35 microns or something of that nature. If this is true then that would explain why these ultra fine grits, including 0.25 micron diamond paste, have tendancy to ruin or over sharpen the edge.

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I mentioned that, as a smallest width of the very edge measured with SEM on both DE and straight razor blade. I dont know how thin the pastes makes the blade but it might be possible that overhoned effect is due to the edge being thinner and instead of cutting the hair it cuts AND bends, making the further passes uncomfortable. But this theory looks fishy too, so when I manage and oversharpen the blade with my Norton, Lithide and Itsapeech, ill let you know.

Nenad

Well you all know where I stand on this isssue, but I'll try to stay on track. I find that teeth are very essential but they seem useful at the completely opposite side of the honing scale. So that if dull is useless and sharp is shaving the teeth come into play just after dull. I find a razor shaves nicely in this area but it must have teeth. Then as you get sharper and sharper the teeth become increasing less important and at some point dissappear and even if they were there they wouldn't be useful. Your shaving on an ultra sharp blade. Works great.

I think barbers sharpened there blades in a very different way then most of us do today. With teeth and not so sharp and they spent more time on prep and smoothing out the blade. The blades that I have perfected with this method are smooth, and are very, very, effective scything. They leave the skin feeling incredible, moist and supple. They cut almost like a serrated edge would on a tomato, very effective. I've always thought that these blades shaved so well with a scything motion that guys who sharpen their blades really, really, sharp and still scythed were probably being dangerously stupid.

But those blades are different and take a whole different learning curve to create and understand. I still have yet to perfect my understanding of it. But I would think that if you were shaving someone else a blade that shaves effectively and has a harder time nicking you would be beneficial.

I think the guys who talk about an 8k hone being just fine for shaving may still have some teeth on their blades atleast at the microscopic level, perhaps about 100x.

On the other end of the spectrum I think its possible to create a razor that is too sharp, but its too sharp based on your skin type and the human ability to control the blade. Not really too sharp per say. My skin is pocketed so I get a feeling of too sharp easily and prefer smooth. I think that your skin doesn't like a blade that is so thin microscopically that it fits INTO the pores of the skin as it rides along the face. That would irritate and feel too thin.

I have recently repeated the feeling I get with a Feather razor with my straights. I touch the blade to my face and get cut, never mind moving it on my face. I find this a little too sharp, more because its just annoying. Its just like shaving with a fresh DE blade. Get nicked like 5 times a shave. Grab a DE blade (blade only) in your hand and try shaving with that and you'll decide suddenly that its too sharp, its sharpness hasn't changed at all but your ability to control it has so you cut your self all up and its now too sharp. It isn't any sharper than it was a minute ago but its too sharp when you try using it without the razor, its like using a shavette, lightweight with a blade that feels too sharp.

Blades that I sharpen with an emphasis on striations shave easily and smoothly. I suggest, X, that you simply start practicing applying striations.

I think we overlook the importance of smoothness on the blade. It takes a few shaves for any razor to smooth out or lots of initial stropping maybe. I think an over sharp blade and an overhoned blade are too similar to really differentiate sometimes, even microscopically at 100x we may not be seeing it well. But an "oversharp" or "overhoned" blade may be really impossible to smooth out because its no longer a smooth bevel; its torn up at the microscopic level (not the molecular level, thats silly) of steel, the particles are starting to stop behaving in a supporting role to the bevel, that is you've no longer created an edge, you've created chaos. I think the smoothness of the bevel is important with this method.

I think .5 paste may dull because it removes all the striations. But I know I'll never convince anyone of it and since striations are so effective at a lower level I won't even argue the point because I think they dissappear after several 8K passes (which is why I think the pyriamid limits the 8K passes to a 3-5 area) At .5 I think the blade is getting dull because you've reached the human limit of control over the blade on the strop and your simply rounding the edge. Either the leather is compressing too much, your turning your hand while you strop, or as I have found leather is simply too supple. Which is why I went to balsa wood, and stopped using leather.

But I do wonder about guys who use the 8K in a pyramid method and then go to .5 paste directly. Guys who should have enough experience to use the .5 correctly get a "duller" blade? Hard to believe really, isn't it?

I also wonder about guys who say striations don't exist but believe whole heartedly in scything motions . . .what are they scything on?

I find a razor pulls a little more when ultra sharp but that they are more sharp then previously not duller, so I consider the pulling effect not less sharp, just missing striations. But, thats just my opinion at the moment.

I also wonder about guys with a lot of experience with a straight, when they say something like "Yea, it was sharp and all but the xxxxxxxxxx (whatever method they use to keep a razor keen) stops working and I gotta go back to 4K for a few passes" Huh? so 12K or .5 isn't getting the razor sharp ANYMORE? Huh? Its too bad they just don't say, "I went back and added striations" LOL

I think when Mr. Gillette, et all created machine honed DE blades they realized that they could get the blade shaving smooth with a sharp blade honed "sideways" but that the blade needed more wieght (the razor head) behind it to get it to shave, weight we usually don't have with a straight. But that a striated blade lasted too long and wouldn't be replaced fast enough. He conned everyone into thinking a razor that dulls faster is better then a razor that lasts for years shaving using striations and a strop. I wonder sometimes why a blade thats really sharp needs so little stropping and acts so much like a DE blade. MMMMMMMMM.

But, X, I'll tell you this much, even though its all written up in the barbers manual you can forget trying to convince anyone of the need for striations.

How in the world can anyone say that there are no such thing as teeth(fin) and striations! They are obvious! I can see the striations with a 30X microscope! The only reason that they are not visible in the Vanderhooven(sp?) PDF doc is that he has a large amount of reflection! When I am using a microscope If I tilt it just right the image gets brighter and become a glare thus obscuring the striations. In terms of
"teeth" on the edge I would not expect to see them except under much higher magnification. The max tha was used in that study was 3000X and most were 800X.

There has been over 100 years of straight razor use and studied by many people. They have concluded that there are "teeth" on the edge and frankly I am not willing to disregard
the accumulated knowledge based on just one picture.
Vanderhooven did a nice study but it is far from definitive.

This "no fin" "no striiation" nonsense has got to stop.
Show me proof. Its like saying that hair follicles do not have scales ( thats been seen in microscopes for years) If you doubt that then start reading a barbers textbook. I have one I can loan you if necessary.

Hi all,

maybe my conclusions (teeth ruled out etc.) are wrong, because if I have a look at my honing pattern:

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Originally Posted by Martin Adler

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1000 King stone with water,
6000 King stone with water,
8000 King stone with water,
Blue Belgian coticule with lather,
plain leather strop (I don't use pasted strops).

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I'd maybe better interpret the mechanism in the following way:

After establishing an edge with the 1000 and 6000 and polishing it with the 8000 I add striations to it with the coticule having a grit of about 4000-6000.

This could explain my success in always freshing up razors on the coticule only when they begin to become dull and need some honing.

What is more: Today I didn't use the double X pattern (giving rhombic striations) on the coticule, but only a simple X (giving parallel striations). The result was a stunning HHT. Tomorrow I will see how the razor shaves.

So maybe I am back on the road to belief in teeth ;)

Best regards
Martin

Martin,
Can you clarify just which stone you are refering to as your final step. You mention the Belgian Blue Coticule. The Coticule (stone of Vielsalm) typically refers to the yellow Belgian stone which is finer than the blue.

Belgians rate the Blue Whetstone at 4000 grit and the byellow at 8000 grit but most find that both stones cut much finer.

Are you using the blue stone as your final honing step? How do you feel about the way it works? I have several of the blue stones myself but find they are not popular here in the US like the Nortons of Yellow Coticules are.

Tony Miller

Hi Tony,

I mean the blue Belgian stone found recently in the Belgian Ardennes.

Mine is formed regularly and seems to be rather hard and not extremely abrasive. So, for dull ebay razors it works much to slow in my opinion.
The Japanese stones (King) are much more aggressive, even at 8000.

I always use this blue stone as the final step and get much better results compared to stopping after the 8000.

As far as maintenance of an edge after the initial establishing is concerned: the blue stone and a plain leather strop are the only tools I need to keep the razor in perfect condition.

I hope I answered your questions.

Best regards
Martin

Martin,
Thanks. I think I need to work with my Blue stones a bit to see just what they can do. I had a few come in for resale but decided to keep them for my collection but have yet to spend time with them, so far, favoring the yellow ones.
Thanks for your input.

Tony

Here are some very good images of a commercial razor blades clearly showing the scratch patterns and micro-bevel geometry along with some interesting comments.

Razor Blade Edge Photos