What seems to be working now...feedback

In my quest for honing nirvana, I'm starting to develop a system that is giving me decent results. This is for bringing back the dead, i.e. Ebay razors. I'll take any feedback, but this is what I'm starting to sort out in my head:

220/320 grit: I'm using this to create a bevel. I don't really use excessive pressure, but will be vigorous with this stone. I have a Norton 220 and a DMT 320 and I will alternate between them, with the 320 being the more aggressive stone. I'll hone on these until I can see an even bevel and feel the edge starting to cut through the skin on the TPT.

Norton 1k: I know this is considered a bevel setting stone, but I think of it more for taking out the rough edges from the 200/320 stones. Earlier, I had been relying on this stone to create bevels and the fine edge would come and go all the time. since adding the 220 to the mix I have had fewer problems with that. I know that the initial bevel I created with those probably looks like a serrated knife under magnification. I will use the 1k to take out the rough edges, sometime jointing with this stone if I can feel roughness. I hone here until the roughness is gone on the TPT and no more.

Norton 4k: Essentially smoothing and sharpening. I don't spend too much time here. Usually in the 50-100 strokes range before moving on to 8k. I will frequently come back to this stone if I feel the edge fading while using the 8k, sort of like doing a pyramid, but not in a regular pattern.

Naniwa 8k: I use this one until the TPT is getting scary. When I can't feel the edge, but I know it's cutting, I'm ready to try cropping arm hairs. When they start falling off my arm above the skin, I move on.

The People's Stone: aka. chinese 12k. I give it 100 strokes. No tests.

My razors are improving when I use this system.The biggest change for me is the use of the 220/320 stones as bevel creators. I was in a slump, getting NOWHERE for a while. This has helped quite a bit.

Feedback?

Goog

Feedback? OK. You discovered the real key to good honing. Don't screw around; use an agressive stone to set the bevel. On a really dull razor, a 1K just isn't agresive enough to set the bevel quickly and the temptation to start refining the edge before it's actually set is a real problem. Once the bevel is set, the rest is very straightforward and not particularly onerous. So, in my opinion, it's important to get agressive with that first stage in order to build a platform for the rest of the your routine to do it's job, whatever that routine may be.

Believe it or not, even the Norton flattening stone (the flat side) does a pretty good job of setting the bevel on a particularly stubborn blade with lots of gemoetry problems. And still even with that coarse stone, once that's done, the rest is a breeze.

Maybe it would not be a bad idea to use a piece of tape when setting the bevel with the DMT. You can tear up a spine fairly quickly with that low grit diamond. If you are worried about the angle, don't. By the time your bevel is set, most of the tape will be worn down and it will be easy to get on the next stone.
Mike

You are obviously getting there, so I can't argue with sucess...

You are ripping steel with great abandon though, and this is a knife/tool guy approach not a razor guy approach..
As you get better you are going to find that the "Less is More" tactic is going to start working.. Right now you are pushing way, way, way past the optimum levels just to make sure you get there, then you are taking off more steel getting back to it...... You want to sneak up on a fine razor's edge you don't want to hammer it into the steel...

I can tell you this much from experience dealing with way more bad e-bay blades then I care to count I have used a DMT 325 or a Norton 220 maybe 100 times out of about 4000 and most of those were damaged/worn wedges....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You are obviously getting there, so I can't argue with sucess...

You are ripping steel with great abandon though, and this is a knife guy approach not a razor guy approach..
As you get better you are going to find that the "Less is More" tactic is going to start working.. Right now you are pushing way, way, way past the optimum levels just to make sure you get there, then you are taking off more steel getting back to it...... You want to sneak up on a fine razor's edge you don't want to hammer it into the steel...

I can tell you this much from experience dealing with way more bad e-bay blades then I care to count I have used a DMT 325 or a Norton 220 maybe 100 times out of about 4000 and most of those were damaged/worn wedges....

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Well I can't argue that your razors are getting sharp edges. (well, I could but I won't :D) I will say that Glen's idea of "Less is More" is what I've always thought the goal was with honing. "Hone like a diamond cutter" and all that. I try to do as few strokes as possible on each stone and I rely heavily on the TPT and AHT (against the skin, like in the RazorCon 09 video) to get me through my progression, then shave test the sucker to know if I done good.

Personally, I'm not a big "system" guy. I know Lynn and all the other guys perfected that Pyramid guide, but it doesn't make sense that every razor needs the same honing work. I do circles and X's for bevel setting, then just regular straight-, X- or rolling X-strokes (as needed) from there on. Other than that I don't go down a checklist.

But like I said, I'm not here to argue and I'm glad you're getting great edges. Keep it up. :tu

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

In my quest for honing nirvana, I'm starting to develop a system that is giving me decent results. This is for bringing back the dead, i.e. Ebay razors. I'll take any feedback, but this is what I'm starting to sort out in my head:

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Yes. That's it exactly: "bringing back the dead." Don't worry about the complaints, they're not reading deep enough. I, too, have never tried to hone up a razor from 1,000k Norton if the edge is obviously dulled and has chips in it, no matter how small. I have a 60x-100x RadioShack microscope and I can say that thing is as essential to my honing as the hones themselves. I have the two Norton combination stones (220/1k, 4k/8k) and the 2" wide 8" long Spyderco sapphire stones (medium through ultra-fine). Just looking at the scratch pattern and seeing the edge's shape from the 220 and you can see it's going to take a lot of metal removal to hone out those chips! What's the point of using a 1,000 for that?!

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

220/320 grit: I'm using this to create a bevel. I don't really use excessive pressure, but will be vigorous with this stone. I have a Norton 220 and a DMT 320 and I will alternate between them, with the 320 being the more aggressive stone. I'll hone on these until I can see an even bevel and feel the edge starting to cut through the skin on the TPT.

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I finally pushed it to the limit and caused the edge to roll over. I wanted to see what it would take to achieve that. I have not found the coarse DMT to be the mosteffective remover, I actually prefer the 220 Norton.

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

Norton 1k: I know this is considered a bevel setting stone, but I think of it more for taking out the rough edges from the 200/320 stones. Earlier, I had been relying on this stone to create bevels and the fine edge would come and go all the time. since adding the 220 to the mix I have had fewer problems with that. I know that the initial bevel I created with those probably looks like a serrated knife under magnification. I will use the 1k to take out the rough edges, sometime jointing with this stone if I can feel roughness. I hone here until the roughness is gone on the TPT and no more.

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Great googaly moogaly, googamooga! You write like someone with MAD, or, microscope acquisition disorder: a disorder of the rational part of the brain that cannot comprehend the benefits of acquiring a microscope! See also the variant of phobia listed under "RadioShack" in the DSM-IV. Don't worry, brother honer, help is out there... (Yes, 1k is serrated.)

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

Norton 4k: Essentially smoothing and sharpening. I don't spend too much time here. Usually in the 50-100 strokes range before moving on to 8k. I will frequently come back to this stone if I feel the edge fading while using the 8k, sort of like doing a pyramid, but not in a regular pattern.

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Yep. Me too. 4k is the most intermediate of the Nortons. 220-1000 is the brunt of the real work, 4k is sliding into home and 8k is a pleasure. For me, the polishing stone after 8k is already a done deal once the 8k's mirror is complete.

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

Naniwa 8k: I use this one until the TPT is getting scary. When I can't feel the edge, but I know it's cutting, I'm ready to try cropping arm hairs. When they start falling off my arm above the skin, I move on.

The People's Stone: aka. chinese 12k. I give it 100 strokes. No tests.

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Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Can't really tell what condition the edge is in with the Spyderco ultra-fine, really all I can do is test shave, and not screw around with wimpy body hair, either. Gotta take that blade to my face, brothuh!

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

My razors are improving when I use this system.The biggest change for me is the use of the 220/320 stones as bevel creators. I was in a slump, getting NOWHERE for a while. This has helped quite a bit.

Feedback?

Goog

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I think the important thing to bear in mind, folks, is these are new corpses. Not refreshing blades. Bringing 'em back from the dead. I experimented with Norton's 1,000, reading on these forums kind of set the question in the back of my head. Microscope quickly destroys that experiment. When you're bent over a honing stone for 15 minutes and you re-inspect with a microscope... man... microscopes don't lie, man. Lay off poor googamooga. Don't you know he's great? I respect people who don't have the visual analysis available to them who can figure it out by feel and tests. He just needs treatment for his... disorder, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

Maybe it would not be a bad idea to use a piece of tape when setting the bevel with the DMT. You can tear up a spine fairly quickly with that low grit diamond. If you are worried about the angle, don't. By the time your bevel is set, most of the tape will be worn down and it will be easy to get on the next stone.
Mike

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Yup. I made that decision early one when I started honing my Craftsman with the engraved spine. No way was I going to destroy that.

Goog

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You are obviously getting there, so I can't argue with sucess...

You are ripping steel with great abandon though, and this is a knife/tool guy approach not a razor guy approach..
As you get better you are going to find that the "Less is More" tactic is going to start working.. Right now you are pushing way, way, way past the optimum levels just to make sure you get there, then you are taking off more steel getting back to it...... You want to sneak up on a fine razor's edge you don't want to hammer it into the steel...

I can tell you this much from experience dealing with way more bad e-bay blades then I care to count I have used a DMT 325 or a Norton 220 maybe 100 times out of about 4000 and most of those were damaged/worn wedges....

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Eventually, I'll get there and not have to use the "carpet bomb" method of bevel setting. I tried sneaking up on a sharp bevel with the 1k, and it saw me coming. :)

Goog

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Originally Posted by greatgoogamooga

Eventually, I'll get there and not have to use the "carpet bomb" method of bevel setting. I tried sneaking up on a sharp bevel with the 1k, and it saw me coming. :)

Goog

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OK now that was funny :)

Glad you're getting results that work for you!

My usual method is to start with the highest possible grit stone and only move lower down if I have to. I read that when I first joined here and its been my watchword (or watchphrase in fact lol!) whenever I hone.

I might start on the 325 DMT with a totally dull wedge, just to get a bevel set fast, and definately with any razor if it had chipping. But a hollow ground with an intact but dull edge, I'll start with the 1k.

If the razor feels anywhere near pocketknife sharp (and looks reasonable under a loupe) then I'll start on the 1k regardless of grind as these seem to set reasonably fast.

So far thats working well for me, but keep experimenting and find out how you can get those elusive perfect edges...!

Whatever works for you. I have noticed that over time I have varied my approaches from one method to another with one razor/hone combination or another. The circle technique along with back and forth strokes at the 1k level has become my usual bevel setting method unless I'm starting with an really nice edge. New razor type of edge. In that case sometimes X strokes on a 4k can bring it to shaving sharpness fairly quickly and then on to finishing. OTOH, a Wosty wedge that I recently picked up needed the DMT 600 to get it to the 1k bevel setting stage.

what works for me. right from scratch 1k naniwa, or if i have to drop back to 600 duo diamond plate. I do most of the work on the 1k bevel stage. the razor has to shave arm realy well. I use normal x strokes and the odd set of back and forth and a little pressure , i mainly let the hone do the cutting to keep bevel nice and even. Once the bevel is set i work on my fastest coticule with slurry with back and forth strokes untill the bevel is smoothed out . i check with 30k loop, once all looks nice i stop . I then do dilucot on my slower coticule and finish on water. I find my slower cutter reaches keeness much easier. once i'm done i test shave and the shave is allways pritty damm good or not far of. i do add a thew laps laps on .5 .025 and cro.ox just 5 on each. this works consistantly for me. I have added escher after coticule and also nice results.

other than that i would go 4k/8k then coti paste also works . My favourite routine is my 1k followed by coticule and some kind of spray or paste but no more than 10 to 20 laps

I've been honing blades of all sorts since I was 10 or 12 years old and take a lot of things for granted when I discuss honing. When you've honed thousands and thousands of blades, you can tell quickly what you're going to have to do to get-r-done. Sometimes it's a touchup with a finishing home. Sometimes it's the nuclear option. Most times it's somewhere in between. Someone with enough time and patience could restore an Ebay special on a barber hone or Chinese 12K. I take a more results-oriented approach, though, and start with a hone that's agressive enough to get the bevel cleaned up in a couple minutes.

The way I see it, you can cut the grass with a lawnmower or a weed eater and how much grass there is to cut and how hard it will be to cut with each tool, respectively, is what drives my choice regarding which tool is right for the job.

In it's essence, honing is a very, very simple activity. Abrade both sides of the edge into a bevel that meets at clean, sharp edge. Then refine the edge.

That's it.

Keeping that in mind makes it a little easier to decide what tool to apply for what stage of the work you're doing. There comes a point where the sharpness is limited by the structure of the steel and when you've pushed that envelope, everything beyond that is just grinding away steel. The only real mystery in honing is choosing the right hone for the task and knowing how to tell when you've gotten all you can get out of it, at which point you either move up to a finer finishing technique or hone - or you stop.

That's the confession of a hone-a-holic that's been obsessed with getting steel as sharp as it can possibly get for over 40 years.

All roads lead to Rome. The problem is take road one and you get there in style and take road two and by the time you get there you need a new set of tires, wheels and shocks. I'm with Glen less is more and I would rather take a little more time and remove as little metal than I have to.

I pretty much agree with everyone else. Depending on the work that needs done I don't mind getting aggressive at the bevel setting stage but after that its just different polishing tasks at increasingly higher grits and requires a more gentle touch. Less work and steel abrasion will give you more.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I'm with Glen less is more and I would rather take a little more time and remove as little metal than I have to.

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I'm with Glen on that, too. Always remove as little metal as is necessary to get the job done. Sometimes it's a little. Sometimes a lot. Know how much you've got to remove, know which stones are best to remove that much and don't overdo it. This all comes with experience. Keep at it and you'll do fine.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK now that was funny :)

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glenn, as long as he doesnt pull a sailor move from uncommon valor, if you remember, pull the pin on the gernade and see whats next well all be good. lolol