Honing Training Aid

I've come across a great idea I'd like to share with everyone; the good old kitchen scale! (I have to give credit to Bart for this idea) Maybe this isn't a new idea, but I used one today for the first time. This is a great idea for us noobs!

I noticed a couple of different ways it helped. For one, I have a tendency to bear down a bit as my mind wanders (as it inevitably will) and I forget to think "keep it light", and having the scale there forced me to pay more attention.

I also noticed that my push stroke was consistently heavier than my pull stroke. The visual feed back helped me to correct this flaw in my technique. A flaw I wasn't even aware of.

Having that scale and the instant feedback it provided really helped me to fine-tune my finishing strokes by giving me a visual cue when I strayed a bit.

I hope this can help some other new guys.

Cheers,

Sounds like a really cool idea for the pressure feedback, thanks.

OK I have seen this one a few times,,,

But my question is how many ounces or pounds were you using?????

This could actually be a really good idea if we take this to a different level....

One of the biggest problems with explaining honing to Newbs is "How much pressure to use" for the low low cost of about $25-$30 this could be quantified... I know for a fact there is a difference in the pressure I use to set a bevel and what I use on the finishers...


***Picks up his scale and heads upstairs to hone****


Stay tuned :)

ah ha! I wondered when someone was gonna ask me how much pressure I was using:)

When I was setting the bevel, i used about 200 to 250 g of pressure with a fairly thick slurry. This was within the guidelines Bart recommends for initial bevel setting. My final polishing strokes were around 40 to 50 g. Any less and I seemed to lose control over the way the edge rode the hone. Since there are two contact points, I figure the edge is subject to some amount less than half that because I try to keep what pressure I have biased towards the spine.

Keep in mind, I was using a cheap crappy kitchen scale with very coarse graduations.

I'm dying to hear how much pressure a pro uses. Please keep us posted Glen.

Pressure will change during honing.
while you set bevel.
taking out chips. i use at least 500g-1 kg pressure(haven't measured but approximately) Don't have too much time to waste.
regular honing
finishing the honing
Each step i may use different pressure.
For newbies the best advice i could tell is this.
when you finishing stage of the honing use as little as pressure you can.
Good luck

You always have good advice, Sham.

I found that the 40g mark was a light as i could go and still keep the blade in control. I plan to use the scale for feedback to try to lighten that pressure even more.

My biggest problem (that I knew about) was my unconscious tendency to apply more pressure: i'd be trying to keep the blade feather light on the stone, and after a few strokes i would notice that I'd be bearing down (again!) so I'd lighten up... for a while, and then I'd be bearing down again. (roughly in the 70 to 80g range.)

The biggest advantage, as Glen pointed out, is the ability to "quantify" the appropriate pressure.

FWIW I just weighed the razor I used on a more precise and accurate digital scale and it weighs 38.5 grams, so I'm in there at "the weight of the razor only". That is somewhat encouraging.

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

Any less and I seemed to lose control over the way the edge rode the hone. Since there are two contact points, I figure the edge is subject to some amount less than half that because I try to keep what pressure I have biased towards the spine.

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Favoring the spine is a common mistake. It results in honing for an extended length of time and a inconsistent bevel shape. The distribution of pressure should have more on the edge than the spine. This will also give you greater control while honing and a much better bevel much faster.

Hope this helps,:)

Thanks Randydance,

I was trying to keep the pressure as light as I could by any means.

What you said makes perfect sense, once I thought about it.

It would be great if we could have precise directions for everything we do in life but that isn't usually the case.

It's an interesting idea but if I was starting out it seems if I was looking at a scale as I honed I would first be too preoccupied with the display on the scale and the display would make me skittish about the honing process.

Some things are best learned by doing. You can learn to ride a bike with training wheels on but then you dont want to ever take them off.

thanks for sharing your experience with the scale so far

I can see how it would be useful for someone like myself when I was trying to learn to hone. It took me hours to realize that I was using that very light pressure one uses on a finishing hone. Once I realized setting the bevel required quite a bit more oomph than I thought was necessary, I made much better progress.

But I guess I'll never know for sure whether a scale would have helped me or hurt me in the long run. Guidelines are great when used as guidelines, and getting a general idea of what pressure you should be using while honing your first razor is important. It's a skill maybe best grounded in hands-on and face-to-face instruction, but even that may depend on how the person holding the razor learns

like lynn says, have fun :p

I forsee a new type of custom scales in the future...

Well I have to conclude here with TBS and Lee, This is a detriment not an aid...

Here are some things I learned,,,

You tend to try and change your honing style to the scale and your pre-conceived ideas of where things should be..

First thing I did was zero the scale and stone combo, then set the razor on the stone just holding the Tang at the balance point so ZERO pressue... I got 115g


My numbers are nowhere close to yours I mean were not even in the same ball park.. When I did the first 40 Circles for the bevel set I was in the 1000g-1200g arena...

The rest of the numbers are total BS because you start to chase the scale instead of chasing the edge...

I think those might be the only useful numbers I could give, so someone could get an idea of the amount of pressure that really is used when setting a bevel using Lynn's 40 Circles technique...

I would be very, very, very, suspect of any numbers, from anybody, even my own...


Sorry I had high hopes here too...

NOW, if you had a Peak pressure reading, and you could not see the scale, then I might, just might consider that a bit more viable... But even then human nature is to try and attain the best numbers, rather than the best edge...

Thanks for posting your results, Glen. You all have made some excellent points.

But, you see, I have learned something. Actually three somethings:

1: Helped me normalize my strokes by showing variants in pressure from stroke to stroke, and through different parts of the stroke. I've corrected the pressure used on both my pull strokes and push strokes. I guess eventually uneven hone wear would have grassed me up but at least I'm a little more aware. (This point was the main intent of my original post.)

2: Randy pointed out my error in loading the spine and not the edge. This was something I hadn't even thought to ask about. I just made some assumptions. And, well... we all know what it is with assumptions.:)

3: Both Glen and Sham pointed out using pressure somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000g at bevel setting. Even considering all the variables inherent in different guys using different scales in different ways, that's more info than I had before. The next razor I do, I'm throwing it all out the window, and I'm gonna bear down! Kidding, but i do intend to play around a bit with that idea. I admit to having been a little timid about putting "lot's" of pressure to the blade, but I may have been erring on the side of caution.

I do stand by my belief that any data point that can be conveyed in concise terms is often more valuable to one's learning than adjectivial or anecdotal comparisons. Lacking the opportunity to experience a hands-on tutorial session, I have to make do with what I have available. Granted, the kitchen scale may not be the best means, but cheap, practical and "close enough" have often panned out for me in the past. I don't plan on using it much, any more than I still ride a bike with training wheels; it was an interesting, and informative, little experiment. Just one more step on my journey.

I do have to admit I'm curious to hear more about what others find doing this. Both as a means of somewhat quantifying a very evasive subject, and as a feed-back mechanism. So far we've only got a statistic of 2, from both extremes of the spectrum:hmmm:

You have made some good points. There are a number of ways to learn.

This thread has revived an old question...how much pressure and when?
We have never really developed an effective answer for that.

I will make a contribution now...

Q. How much pressure should I use on a German full hollow razor, vintage, with a mildly corroded edge, no visible rust or chips on the edge.

A. Using 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper it normally takes between 50 - 100 laps to remove the old oxidized steel and develop a bevel. If your using far more laps than this try using a bit more pressure.
At one point I described the weight as being equal to having a can of vegetables on the blade. I think I use more pressure than that now when I am starting on the edge. Of course the last 25 laps are always done lightly.

Glen's post actually makes me wonder - we (at least I) do have a preconceived notion about pressure - I now know that using pressure at some stages and different amounts of pressure at other stages can actually be beneficial. What if varying pressure during the stroke is too? If varying pressure is a natural thing and is done subconsciously, we'd never know if we're doing it without using a scale and, like Glen said, if you are watching the scale you may chase the pressure instead of the edge.

Also, the pressure reading on the scale will only tell you the total pressure being used. It won't tell you if that pressure is evenly distributed across the razor. Furthermore, if you have less than the whole razor on the hone (i.e. a smiling razor or just the toe part during an X stroke) the pressure is actually greater (because you are actually measuring a force with the scale, not pressure (pressure is force / surface area)).

Which actually raises another point - if your bevel is twice as wide, and you assume the hone wear is twice as wide too, you'd have 4x the surface area, which means 1/4 the pressure, but the blade will still flex like any other blade of that grind. So there you'd be getting different localized pressure (which is the part that affects the cutting) with the same blade flex..... So that would mean you can actually get waaaaay less localized pressure on razors with wide bevels than you can with narrow bevels, just because of the surface area. Maybe flattened spines and wide bevels are good after all? Ok, I'd done rambling now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wdwrx

Thanks for posting your results, Glen. You all have made some excellent points.

But, you see, I have learned something. Actually three somethings:

1: Helped me normalize my strokes by showing variants in pressure from stroke to stroke, and through different parts of the stroke. I've corrected the pressure used on both my pull strokes and push strokes. I guess eventually uneven hone wear would have grassed me up but at least I'm a little more aware. (This point was the main intent of my original post.)

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This is a very good point you bring up, and I actually do think that the scale or some type of system could be used here...
I did find out that my honing strokes are machine like, very, very, even from stroke to stroke, and lap to lap...
I think in the back of my mind I already knew that, I have a very good ability to repeat the same movement over and over...
My wife has said for a few years now, the only reason I am good at honing and razor stuff is because I have that capacity...She however, calls it part of my OCD :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

It would be great if we could have precise directions for everything we do in life but that isn't usually the case.

It's an interesting idea but if I was starting out it seems if I was looking at a scale as I honed I would first be too preoccupied with the display on the scale and the display would make me skittish about the honing process.

Some things are best learned by doing. You can learn to ride a bike with training wheels on but then you dont want to ever take them off.

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I learned to ride a bicycle without benefit of training wheels and now I can sharpen razors. :beer2:

:confused:

I had this idea last night as I was going to sleep. I figured someone here would've tried it!

Now I'm wondering if one of those pressure-map sensors they use for custom shoes couldn't be modified as a razor mat in order to see pressure distribution over the course of the stroke.

Those larger-sized kitchen scales are calling to me even now. I could set it up so that I shot video of the honing and can only see the numbers when I'm done...

Someone once told me something important, Instead of talking about just pressure it should be referred to as torque pressure. So that the edge always has more pressure than the spine. This is something I never read about in any tutorial yet seems oh so important.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xMackx

Someone once told me something important, Instead of talking about just pressure it should be referred to as torque pressure. So that the edge always has more pressure than the spine. This is something I never read about in any tutorial yet seems oh so important.

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Yes. Not so much that the blade distorts and flexes
too much. Watch some of the good videos from
Lynn or Glenn (gssixgun) and note how they relax
the pressure and torque as the edge comes together
and each grit is finished. Too much pressure at
1000 grit misses the opportunity to get the bevel
straight and even.

Good idea, wrong instrument, instead of a scale, you want a balance. Like an Ohaus triple beam balance. See the scale always has a spring pushing against you, and you have to read a dial or digital numbers, but a balance, once overcome, will freely give way. You could ride the same pressure in between the stops. You could choose any resistance you like by adjusting the sliding masses. You could even put rubber tubing in between the stops at the pointer end to cushion it. You'd learn the feedback quick, i'm sure.
Attachment 87054

The scale is not necessary. Interesting experiment but not necessary.

Focus on the absolute least amount of pressure you can get away with at any given point in the honing process. Why hurry. It gets you nowhere. As the saying goes, "Stop and Smell the Roses".

Take a lesson from the animals. Live in the moment..................

Jerry