Weird results from the Marker test

So, If you know anything about my honing, you will know that I can constantly put out great shaving razors, but that I also take HOURS to set a bevel (3-7 hours on average)

Well, I would really like to cut that time down... Problem is, I don't know how... Here's my current problem: I have a razor with an edge that is flat (with a slight curl at the toe, but that's not a problem)

I have the bevel, to the naked eye, fully set... However, whenever I try the marker test, the bottom half of the back side of the blade doesn't pass... That's the results I had before even starting to set the bevel, and now, two hours later, those are my results...

I am on the 1k doing circles nonstop, and, no matter how much metal is removed, the area won't shrink... No matter what I do, this area won't lose marker... Do I need to just keep removing metal until it is one clean pass, or should I give up and use the rolling X?

Also: this is only on the back of the blade.. Witht he front of the blade, an x stroke removes marker cleanly from heel to toe, with the back of the blade, an x stroke removes the top half of marker, but not the bottom half...

Any suggestions? Sorry if that wasn't clear enough

how's the hone wear on the spine?
Also do you use tape?

Hone wear is fairly light and pretty even (and it is wearing where the marker won't remove from, if that helps)

I /hate/ using tape (just for personal OCD Bevel angle reasons) so no, I don't

could we see a pic so that everyone is clear on exactly which parts of the bevel aren't being touched... Also, any pics showing possible spine wear, warping etc. would help. If this is what I'm picturing, I believe I had a warped (twisted really) blade that did this until I used the rolling x.... :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Del1r1um

could we see a pic so that everyone is clear on exactly which parts of the bevel aren't being touched... Also, any pics showing possible spine wear, warping etc. would help. If this is what I'm picturing, I believe I had a warped (twisted really) blade that did this until I used the rolling x.... :shrug:

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Fairly crappy camera, but I'll try

Here are pictures of the problem... From the middle down where it's darkened, that's the marker... dunno how visible it is.. Sorry

Any other angles you need?

usually when I have a razor that does not hone with standard circles or x strokes, I test which more exotic stroke will do the job.
You could also try narrower stone if you have one and see if this will help.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

usually when I have a razor that does not hone with standard circles or x strokes, I test which more exotic stroke will do the job.
You could also try narrower stone if you have one and see if this will help.

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Heres my question: If I just stick with the circles for a long time, will it remove enough metal to smooth it out, or will that not work? Do I have to find a varied stroke that fits the bill?

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

So, If you know anything about my honing, you will know that I can constantly put out great shaving razors, but that I also take HOURS to set a bevel (3-7 hours on average)

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I'm not sure how to reconcile the two halves of that sentence.

First, if the back of the blade is the one causing trouble, could you please provide a photo of that side of the blade? Spine wear might be informative. Second, could you clarify what you mean by the "slight curl of the toe?"

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

Heres my question: If I just stick with the circles for a long time, will it remove enough metal to smooth it out, or will that not work? Do I have to find a varied stroke that fits the bill?

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Circles only, might or might not work the problem, depending how much warp you have. IMHO working for many hours with stroke that might or might not solve the problem is counter productive, not to mention the hone wear you will induce on the spine. The proper stroke will do the trick much much faster.

As Delirium suggested try rolling x, those are usually very good for problematic edges.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm not sure how to reconcile the two halves of that sentence.

First, if the back of the blade is the one causing trouble, could you please provide a photo of that side of the blade? Spine wear might be informative. Second, could you clarify what you mean by the "slight curl of the toe?"

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The two halves of that sentence mean pretty much exactly what I said... for some reason I have trouble creating a clean bevel swiftly (except for some blades, but that's the exception, not the rule)... However, once I have a bevel set and figure out what strokes work for what blade, my edges are always very nice when finished.

It would appear I misspoke when I said the back of the blade >.< My apologies... I meant the front. Those pictures are of the problematic side... I tried to show the edge and the spinewear as best as I could.

Slight curl at the toe... I mean like an extremely tiny hint of a smile... When you put it edge down on a lapped hone, you can see it. Otherwise it is imperceptible. Almost like an overly muted point

Also, I gave up on circles and went to a rolling X. It's working fine... I was just hoping there was some way to get this blade to work without a rolling X... It doesn't really matter that much, it's just me being anal.

For some reason, and I have no clue why... No matter what stroke I use, or how well it performs with marker and thumbnail tests, I just can't shave armhair off of the 1k without staying ON the 1k for hours and hours.

Baffling.

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

I was just hoping there was some way to get this blade to work without a rolling X... It doesn't really matter that much, it's just me being anal.

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Just out of curiosity, why did you want to avoid a rolling X? What do you normally do to set bevels on razors that don't sit totally flat on hones as they are?

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

For some reason, and I have no clue why... No matter what stroke I use, or how well it performs with marker and thumbnail tests, I just can't shave armhair off of the 1k without staying ON the 1k for hours and hours.

Baffling.

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If you cannot shave arm hair and that is what you are testing for with MMT and TNT, it sounds to me like you need to recalibrate or reapproach your tests. At any given stage, an edge which is positive in one test should be positive on all other tests designed for that stage. MMT won't actually tell you if you have your bevel set. Imagine, for example, a razor that is shave ready. If you were to take that edge and run it along something like a glass bottle, apply marker to both sides and do a few strokes on a hone, all the marker would come off. This is because the bevels run all the way to the edge. BUT, those bevels do not meet at a point - they end in a plateau. As such, the MMT is not a test for a bevel being set. The TNT, however, is. It could be that you are feeling for the wrong thing with TNT. OR, are you doing TNT followed directly by an armhair test? A TNT will actually dull your blade (which is the reason it should not be used after the bevel setting stage). When I used to TNT, I'd do the test, then do 10 strokes on my bevel setter, then continue.

With regards to how long it takes on a 1k - it's going to take what it's going to take; there is no way around that. If your razors are all that dull when you start setting your bevels, you must have some pretty bad luck (unless you like setting bevels, in which case your luck is awesome). It's just like getting new hones; some will take longer to lap than others because some are farther from flat than others; it's just the luck of the draw as to what you get.

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

Slight curl at the toe... I mean like an extremely tiny hint of a smile... When you put it edge down on a lapped hone, you can see it. Otherwise it is imperceptible. Almost like an overly muted point

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may be this question of terminology but based on the description you have bent edge not a smile.
I am also curious about the rolling X, circles is nice and simple but if it does not work then that means something else needs to be used.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Just out of curiosity, why did you want to avoid a rolling X? What do you normally do to set bevels on razors that don't sit totally flat on hones as they are?



If you cannot shave arm hair and that is what your MMT and TNT are testing for, it sounds to me like you need to recalibrate or reapproach your tests. At any given stage, an edge which is positive in one test should be positive on all other tests designed for that stage.

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It's not that I wanted to avoid the rolling X, but I just wanted to get the circles to work, since they are easiest IMO, and the method I learned...

I don't move off of the 1k until it passes the TNT, and the arm hair test... Not sure what the MMT is. I wasn't saying that I give up on it... I was saying that it takes me a long time to pass it. My point was that it seems that the majority of people honing take about an hour, maybe two, to set a bevel, and that I take 4 hours to set a bevel... That bugs me. But I ALWAYS stay on my bevel setting stone until I pass all of the associated tests

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

It's not that I wanted to avoid the rolling X, but I just wanted to get the circles to work, since they are easiest IMO, and the method I learned...

I don't move off of the 1k until it passes the TNT, and the arm hair test... Not sure what the MMT is. I wasn't saying that I give up on it... I was saying that it takes me a long time to pass it. My point was that it seems that the majority of people honing take about an hour, maybe two, to set a bevel, and that I take 4 hours to set a bevel... That bugs me. But I ALWAYS stay on my bevel setting stone until I pass all of the associated tests

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Why not do circles AND roll at the same time. It's what I do. I love it.

MMT in magic marker test, which you'd been referring to. I'm just being lazy in my typing.

My point about the tests is this:
-Imagine Test A and Test B, which both test for a set bevel.
-If you pass Test A, you should also be passing test B.
-If this is not the case, Test A and Test B do not test for the same thing
-OR One of the tests is being done incorrectly.

What I was trying to help you figure out is
-Do MMT and TNT both test for a set bevel - IMO they don't
-Are you doing TNT correctly - Perhaps not, I have no idea cause I can't feel what you are feeling. This is something you can check, though. Take a blade that has a set bevel (check with an arm hair test). Use that blade to do TNT. Remember that feeling.
-Is your TNT good but affecting your arm hair tests - Maybe - TNT will dull a blade.

For the other stuff you said about bevel setting time, check the edits to my previous post.

Alright, one last question before I weigh into this thing for the long haul.

I'll be blunt: I'm 18, so I don't have much arm hair to start with, what I started with was already fine hair, and I've been doing a LOT of honing lately, so I'm down to about as much armhair as a 13 year old girl. Not to mention that what's left is on the edges of my arm, so it's already finer than the minimal hair down the center.

However, my legs are mostly untouched (hello, awkward comments about my sexuality... I thought I had left you back in highschool.) Is shaving armhair versus leghair about the same thing as long as it SHAVES and doesn't PULL the hair out? Otherwise I will probably have to wait a few weeks before resuming honing >.>

Cheers,
Jeremy

I had a simular problem on a razor about three months ago. It was a nos razor and I couldn't figure why I was getting different spine wear and different bevel wear. Upon really lookingover the blade I came to notice that the grind was off. I mean that if you were holding the razor edge up and eyed down the razor from heal to toe, the heal edge would be 1/16" or more left of center of spine & the toe edge was 1/16" right of center of spine. I'll bet I spent at least 3 & maybe 4 hours on that razor. I used every trick I could think of including using the side of some stones. Talk about a total PITA. I've learned to never get hung up on one particular method.

Your armhair VS your leghair is something only you can figure out. Even with armhair, the test works differently for everyone because everyone's hair is different. You certainly can calibrate tests to your leghair in exactly the same way that you calibrated tests to your armhair.

Personally, I find there is variation from one part of my arm to the other, and even among different hairs on one spot on my arm (i.e. I have some really light blond hairs on my bicep, but there are also much thicker, darker hairs there. The darker hairs on my bicep react differently to the darker hairs on my forearm, and the light hairs on my forearm are different from all the other hairs too.)

Any test involving feeling or hair needs to be calibrated in order for it to work, and those calibrations must be individual calibrations. Cutting/shaving/popping are only general guidelines.

On conserving arm hair:
JoeD uses his head loupe and pops single arm hairs one at a time. He'll do one on one part of the blade, another on another part of the blade, and so on. I've taken to doing this too (though without the loupe) in order to conserve arm hairs.

Switching to a TPT can also help. I don't do an armhair test on every razor anymore. I might do it on the first one or two razors. I also TPT those razors once they pass the arm hair test (to help me re-calibrate and re-remember for the TPT) and then only TPT the rest of the razors I do in that honing session.

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

I'll be blunt: I'm 18, so I don't have much arm hair to start with, what I started with was already fine hair, and I've been doing a LOT of honing lately, so I'm down to about as much armhair as a 13 year old girl. Not to mention that what's left is on the edges of my arm, so it's already finer than the minimal hair down the center.

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If you can find a girlfriend with hairy arms grab her. Flowers and candy used to work well. I don't know nowadays. :D

http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...t-100_0316.jpg


Look at this picture see the heel ???? see the tiny "point" starting to form??? it will become a hook if you continue, you need to take that Dremel that you have been messing with, and grind the heel back into shape... The razor is pretty worn, and the geometry is all off now, it has to be brought back into line or even if you get the edge to pop by using every exotic stroke under the sun, the next time you hone it, you will have the same problem...

Some hints on honing,,

1 hour of trying to set the bevel at one time is too long, Stop!!! take a breath and figure out where the problem is...

Anytime you do 100 laps of any style on any stone and don't accomplish something good, Stop !!!! and figure out what your missing...

3-7 hours of bevel setting on one razor???? Stop !!! you're doing something wrong and wasting steel...take a breath and figure out what it is...

If one system is just not working Stop !!!! then change it up, add a layer of tape , subtract a layer of tape, switch stones, switch strokes, but change something, heck I remember one of the guys used to go strop the razor then go back to honing

The more razors you hone the more you are going to learn, BTW the first thing to learn is that there are no set rules in honing razors, if you stay in the same box, you can only hone the razors that fit in that box :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Look at this picture see the heel ???? see the tiny "point" starting to form??? it will become a hook if you continue, you need to take that Dremel that you have been messing with, and grind the heel back into shape... The razor is pretty worn, and the geometry is all off now, it has to be brought back into line or even if you get the edge to pop by using every exotic stroke under the sun, the next time you hone it, you will have the same problem...

Some hints on honing,,

1 hour of trying to set the bevel at one time is too long, Stop!!! take a breath and figure out where the problem is...

Anytime you do 100 laps of any style on any stone and don't accomplish something good, Stop !!!! and figure out what your missing...

3-7 hours of bevel setting on one razor???? Stop !!! you're doing something wrong and wasting steel...take a breath and figure out what it is...

If one system is just not working Stop !!!! then change it up, add a layer of tape , subtract a layer of tape, switch stones, switch strokes, but change something, heck I remember one of the guys used to go strop the razor then go back to honing

The more razors you hone the more you are going to learn, BTW the first thing to learn is that there are no set rules in honing razors, if you stay in the same box, you can only hone the razors that fit in that box :)

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Glen, the point in there, to my knowledge, is just an illusion caused by the ink on the blade... That being said, I still took the dremel and rounded it off, just to nip any problems in the bud.

In other news, I win. The razor is now shave ready... I played with some different angles combined with a weird rolling X, and got /really/ good results... Also, interesting that you'd mention someone stropping in between hones... I tried -for shits and grins- stropping the razor on my palm in between attempts at the 1k, and it made -somehow... I may be imagining this for all I know- a big difference... 2 rounds of that and it was nearly popping armhairs. On to the 5k, again with palm stropping in between, and the arm hairs are popping like bacon on a griddle (damn, now I'm hungry), and so on.

Thanks, everyone in this thread, and the honing forum, I think I've figured out quite a few things with this razor and this thread.

Cheers and good night!

Jeremy

+1 with Glen.

Zombie, I dont know why you are so adversed to using tape, but I'd rather use tape and save time and steel then wear down a good razor over the course of several honing sessions. Just a thought for your consideration

Amen Brother Glen :angel:
The more you hone that razor the more the rear stabiliser will lift the heel off the stone.
Below is what a razor with a "healthy" belly looks like. Well away from the rear flange.
You need to create that kind of profile & in doing so you will slightly shorten that razor also. Just watch your pressure with whatever power tool you use. The stabiliser can take some weight, the blade won't

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

Glen, the point in there, to my knowledge, is just an illusion caused by the ink on the blade... That being said, I still took the dremel and rounded it off, just to nip any problems in the bud.

In other news, I win. The razor is now shave ready... I played with some different angles combined with a weird rolling X, and got /really/ good results... Also, interesting that you'd mention someone stropping in between hones... I tried -for shits and grins- stropping the razor on my palm in between attempts at the 1k, and it made -somehow... I may be imagining this for all I know- a big difference... 2 rounds of that and it was nearly popping armhairs. On to the 5k, again with palm stropping in between, and the arm hairs are popping like bacon on a griddle (damn, now I'm hungry), and so on.

Thanks, everyone in this thread, and the honing forum, I think I've figured out quite a few things with this razor and this thread.

Cheers and good night!

Jeremy

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Sorry Jeremy, it looks like you got it all sorted out as I was typing my response. Glad it all worked out for you in the end. Different strokes and all that....

Ryan

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

+1 with Glen.

Zombie, I dont know why you are so adversed to using tape, but I'd rather use tape and save time and steel then wear down a good razor over the course of several honing sessions. Just a thought for your consideration

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I know that these ramifications would probably never hit in my lifetime, but, God forbid I have a son, I want the razor to have no real complications over it's lifetime... The longer you hone with tape, the stouter the bevel will get, until you need to regrind the edge, or hone from scratch without tape... In my mind it could get to the point where you have to strop taped...

Ask anyone who's done any blade or scale work for me... I'm a compulsive worrier >.<

And I'm not really losing that much metal... I keep all my strokes very light and low on pressure until I can find what works...

All that being said, I'm getting better, fairly quickly.

Fingers crossed, eh?

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

I know that these ramifications would probably never hit in my lifetime, but, God forbid I have a son, I want the razor to have no real complications over it's lifetime... The longer you hone with tape, the stouter the bevel will get, until you need to regrind the edge, or hone from scratch without tape... In my mind it could get to the point where you have to strop taped...

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Regardless of whether you use tape or not, your bevel will get "stouter" - that's exactly what hone wear is. If you don't believe me, well, just look at your razor. If you want to compare how much tape affects bevel width, take two identical razors, tape one, and hone the heck out of both. I'd be curious to see the after pictures.

There are a lot of posts about how little tape affects the bevel angle. I also put up a poll thread about whether or not members have ever "worn down" razors from normal use - meaning maintenance after the razor was already shave ready. Maybe 5 said yes. Put those to together - it doesn't really matter if you tape or not, unless you are an excessive honer. I can't provide numbers cause I've never done it, but I'd bet it would take at least a few hundred touchups removes the same amount of metal as 1 bevel setting. If you use the same razor daily, you'd touch up... what? every other week at most? That's maybe 10 to 30 years of daily shaving and regular touchups equating to the removal of maybe 1/32 of blade width.

All those old blades with massive hone wear - I DO NOT buy it that that was put on by people who knew what they were doing who just did touchups to a regularly used razor. Sure, a barber might put excessive wear onto a razor, because he has to be 100% sure every shave he gives will be extremely comfortable for his customers or else he'll lose his customers. For the rest, I'd bet it was people who just didn't know what they were doing; it happens today so why not back then.

In short, I think you are worried about nothing. Tape or no tape, I'll bet you $10 that even in 10 years you'll never notice the difference.

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Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

And I'm not really losing that much metal... I keep all my strokes very light and low on pressure until I can find what works...

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I suppose "that much" is relative, cause to me it looks like you took a heck of a lot of metal off that razor (unless the bevels and spine wear were that big when you started). Regardless... it doesn't matter mot light or low pressure your strokes are, if you spend hours on a bevel setter, you are removing a lot of metal.

i always tape hone my practice razors just to keep bevel thin other wise the bevel becomes big i hate that, i prefer a nice thin bevel. always set bevel with tape then remove and carry on as normal with no tape. thats how i do it.

if i was honing that razor i would of tryed a thin hone or gone straight to roll .

Although it's more time consuming I've been an advocate of reverse honing for a few years.

Apply a shaving edge first, then back into a good bevel with every failure.

Spending hours trying to develop a good bevel, and hoping you know it when you see it, takes away most of the razor's geometry that could have created a good bevel in the first place.

Using a 1K stone, although effective, is also like sculpting wood with a flame thrower.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Using a 1K stone, although effective, is also like sculpting wood with a flame thrower.

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Damn Alan. I really want to hang out with you again sometime!
I feel like I squandered the last time we were hanging out.

-Rob

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Although it's more time consuming I've been an advocate of reverse honing for a few years.

Apply a shaving edge first, then back into a good bevel with every failure.

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Could you elaborate on that please?

I'm assuming that you are suggesting taping the spine to set the bevel, then removing the tape to "set the spine" and reseting the bevel to the new untaped angle. I don't know what you mean by "then back into a good bevel with every failure."