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Have a TI that is normally a smoothie, after a round of sharpening it has become sharp but is really not smooth. I looked at the edge at 100X and I don't see much in the way of teeth, the edge looks uniform. However, it has a sandpaper quality. The edge holds up for a shave and will strop back to HHT. The shave was close.
Any ideas what the issue and resolution may be?
Did your "round of sharpening" include any diamond paste or spray? I have a felt block w/ .25 micron diamond spray on it -- it makes my razors harsh as crap. Stopped using it, will probably chalk it up to experience.
Unfortunately no. I used a thuringian (70 strokes) followed by coticule with just water (100 strokes).Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy52
I have no idea, what your problem is, however the current production of TI is very good after diamond pasted strop.
You have a previous reference with that razor, so the problem is with the honing for certain. I could suggest trying few different finishings and observe what differences they make. And then perhaps redo the honing, carefully observing how the tests you are using during the honing progression.
I can see a lot of useful things in my microscope, that help me honing, but you may not have the resolution in yours.
I'm thinking you may have just enough of a wire/burr/etc to be uncomfortable but maybe due to the TI's hard steel it is not folding away as on a softer tempered razor & the edge survives the shave.Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
I'm surprised finishing on a coticule has not smoothed it out.
A few firmish strokes on linen, then a few laps on your finisher again may help if there is a wire.
Any pics at 100x ??
Strop it 125 times on some colored newspaper,it smooths out my Wacker
Random guesses...
Stick to one of thuringian or coticule but not both.
My inclination is that the razor is a little overhoned
so also reduce the number of strokes.
Try five front/back strokes on the Thuringian
followed by 15-20 normal hone strokes, strop and
shave test.
Some TI razors are very hard and a coticule may sharpen
your TI better than the thuringian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
Try using the coti and then the thuri, see if that helps.
Chrom ox has been known to smooth a sharp but harsh edge IME. :shrug:
bonusmarple,
I have a couple of C135 TIs that sometimes do feel a bit harsh after coming off the stones.
I use a CrOx pasted paddle, or a cotton hanger with TI Pate a Rasoir to smooth the edge; I usually do 5 laps, test & repeat if needed.
I find that once dialled in, the C135 edges last very well indeed.
The C135 blades do feel different on the face compared to my other carbon steel blades; not unpleasent, just different :)
Have fun !
Best regards
Russ
I have the radio shack special handheld. What type of microscope would you suggest and what would I look for on the blade?Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
The RS handheld with 100x magnification is a great tool, look for a rough bevel and rough edge, everything should look smooth. Any pits, corrosion, sawteeth, divots, chips, nicks need to go. The edge should be straight and the bevel smooth.
This razor is one of the historic silver steel. I definitely should have mentioned this up front. Good to know on the C-135 though since I have one on order.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatMan
At 100X, the edge is a straight line, however the reflection off the very edge is not uniform, it alternates shiny and dark in an irregular pattern. I am guessing that is the result of some very very tiny irregularities on the very edge. Problem is, I don't know if that is "normal" because I just don't have the experience with this. Any advice would be welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by nun2sharp
After reading the above quote I am inclined to agree with the quote belowQuote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
You mean like this ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
Yes! Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
For my own sanity, I decided to start from a known point on the razor. I bought the razor pre-honed and while it was honed well I wanted to start from scratch to learn a little more about the razor. I ran the razor through the dilucot method and followed that with 5 passes on CrOx. The razor is back to form but one thing I did notice about this historic steel and/or grind is that the edge is delicate. I need to dig up the edge angle calculation because I have a hunch that the angle is going to be very low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
Basically anything 60x or better will tell you a lot.
Put a hair or whisker under the scope, when
you can see the scales on hair you have more
than enough magnification.
Look for the removal of scratches from the previous hone
by the current hone.
Inspect to ensure that the bevel extends to the cutting edge.
Sometimes it can help to change the direction of honing strokes
so it is easy to see the new hone erase the scratches of the
previous hone.
A problematic wire edge burr is also easy to spot. On coarse
hones in a progression a burr can be considered proof that the
bevel extends to the edge. As long as the last finish hone
does not leave a burr you are good to go.
Another thing to watch for are micro chips because they
are local dull spaces. Too many and an otherwise sharp
edge will not shave comfortably.
i would second that ti rasoir paste will transform that edge .yes my ti silver wing does feel differant . mine is finished on coticule and is very smooth but differant. i use d the ti paste when i was struggling to get the smoothness and it works a treat , i use it on canvas strop and the rsults are very good. other than that i would try 15 back and forth strokes followed by 30 light strokes in normal x on coticule . i must admit it took me a while to get a good edge of mt silver wing and my ti la grelot . once i did they shave very well .Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatMan
I have a plain c135 on order with Martin. Once he gets back from vacation, I will ask him to throw in the paste. Thanks to all for the suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
Some of the things that stand out here to me...
1. What progression did you use to get to the finishers????
2. Why two stones to finish???
3. Both finishing stones you are using should be more than capable of producing comfortable shaves by themselves...
4. The fact that you are finding it "necessary" to use two finishers hints that you don't find the initial finish of either stone to be enough.. Which IME tells me that the initial bevel set - sharpen - polishing, progression is lacking...
5. One piece of honing advice you often see is that if your 8k level of honing (regardless of what that is) does not produce a good shave then more stones and more pastes are just a crutch.. I know that isn't what you wanted to hear, but it tends to be the truth...
6. TI's can be finicky on the bevel set, but IME I haven't ever noticed anything different about them in the higher grits...
Hope at least some of that helps...
+1 to this. Looking back on what I have went through...
1) If the razor is "sharp", but not smooth. You probably did not do enough work on the stones and used the pastes to try and cheat a bit.
2) I even made a thread about this... Put away all your finishing stones and pastes. Just shave off your 8k for awhile. Once you reach a point where you are getting good shaves off your 8k, you probably will not have this "sharp, but not smooth" problem any more.
3) I still consider myself a novice, take my advice with a grain of salt. I hone less razors in a month that a lot of people do here in a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Thanks for the reply. I did not do the initial honing, however Martin did and he did a good job. After about 10-15 shaves the razor started to dull and I wanted to work with finishers and that is how I got here. At the end of the day, I decided to start over with a Dilucot. At the end of the Dilucot I noticed a couple of things. First, the edge is very, very delicate. I noticed a very small chip after the final pass on the Coticule.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
The razor shaves very well and I only did 5 passes on CrOx beyond Bart's Dilucot. What my guess is is that the razor angle is very narrow. The spine width is 5/8 but the width from the edge to the honing flat is wider than my other 5/8ths. My guess is that the edge is a tad on the thin side and that led to some deformation and why I could not get a smooth shave after some time on the razor. I need to haul out the micrometer and run the measurements through the angle algorithm. I think the edge angle is just wide enough to last a few shaves, but not wide enough to really hold up. More to come on this one.
Blade in that pic is slightly overhoned. Pic is around 200x. The wire & serrations are small & not so obvious to the naked eye but obvious to the face :p I'm guessing too many strokes around 8k & upwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
As with yours it shaved very close but not comfortably.
Edit: Oh I see you used a coti. So much for not being able to overehone with a Coti.
Tho the edge may be a "tad thin" The "less is more" theory may be applicable also.
I used a combo of coti and thuringian. It was one of the timber tools thuringians so I might have overhoned with that vs the coti.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
The more I think about this the more I am guessing why my Dilucot works more. Effectively I am spending more time with a high grit stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfast
maertin sent me a ti legrelot and he does an amazing job at honing . he finishes the edge on 10k naniwa and he starts with coticule . bart always hones his ti's on one layer of o.15 electrical tape using unicot he then adds another layer of tape to perform unicot edge . he says aftyer a thew shaves the edge is delicate , btittle and the edge chips very easily. unicot adds strenght to the edge . why don't you try unicot as mentioned i have and it realy worked and does'nt take long set bevel on one layer of tape then add another layer and do 20 laps on misty slurry and 60 laps on water nice light laps . bart says this alters the angle and makes for strong bevel and you get no chips etc. other than that do dilucot and then ti paste if you prefer traditional bevel.
if you take a look on ebay uk under razor strop you will see some little green pkts of ti paste it only £4
[QUOTE=gary haywood;630791] bart always hones his ti's on one layer of o.15 electrical tape using unicot he then adds another layer of tape to perform unicot edge . he says aftyer a thew shaves the edge is delicate , btittle and the edge chips very easily. unicot adds strenght to the edge . why don't you try unicot as mentioned i have and it realy worked and does'nt take long set bevel on one layer of tape then add another layer and do 20 laps on misty slurry and 60 laps on water nice light laps . bart says this alters the angle and makes for strong bevel and you get no chips etc. other than that do dilucot and then ti paste if you prefer traditional bevel.[QUOTE]
:OT
What is the difference????
I have read this over and over from Bart and others BTW, and honestly this has always bugged me... What is the difference, if I add a piece of tape at the end or add them at the beginning????
You and others are essentially saying that the .50-.75 of a degree change from one piece of tape is going to change the edge enough to make it stronger???? you are talking here about micron differences on the bevel...
When actual angle measurments on real razors range from 12 degrees to 25 degrees... This doesn't really make sense then does it???? In fact some razors the bevel angle actually changes from heel to toe...
Now if this were true and proved why do so many people swear by NO TAPE at all on razors. if the edge is made stronger by adding 1 layer on top of one other, what is the difference between one layer and none????
So what difference would it make to the edge of the razor if I started with two layers, or started with one, then only added the second for the last few laps the angle at the edge is the same....
Or used just 1 or 3 or 4 see what I am asking???
I think you all are deluding yourselves by thinking it is the tape and angle when it is actually the fact that you are taking your time and finishing the razor correctly....
My 2 pence
Gary, no offense intended to you at all, if it works then more power to ya, but I think it is working for another reason then what you are thinking....
[QUOTE=gssixgun;630814][QUOTE=gary haywood;630791] bart always hones his ti's on one layer of o.15 electrical tape using unicot he then adds another layer of tape to perform unicot edge . he says aftyer a thew shaves the edge is delicate , btittle and the edge chips very easily. unicot adds strenght to the edge . why don't you try unicot as mentioned i have and it realy worked and does'nt take long set bevel on one layer of tape then add another layer and do 20 laps on misty slurry and 60 laps on water nice light laps . bart says this alters the angle and makes for strong bevel and you get no chips etc. other than that do dilucot and then ti paste if you prefer traditional bevel.I believe "The Glen" nailed it!:DQuote:
:OT
What is the difference????
I have read this over and over from Bart and others BTW, and honestly this has always bugged me... What is the difference, if I add a piece of tape at the end or add them at the beginning????
You and others are essentially saying that the .50-.75 of a degree change from one piece of tape is going to change the edge enough to make it stronger???? you are talking here about micron differences on the bevel...
When actual angle measurments on real razors range from 12 degrees to 25 degrees... This doesn't really make sense then does it???? In fact some razors the bevel angle actually changes from heel to toe...
Now if this were true and proved why do so many people swear by NO TAPE at all on razors. if the edge is made stronger by adding 1 layer on top of one other, what is the difference between one layer and none????
So what difference would it make to the edge of the razor if I started with two layers, or started with one, then only added the second for the last few laps the angle at the edge is the same....
Or used just 1 or 3 or 4 see what I am asking???
I think you all are deluding yourselves by thinking it is the tape and angle when it is actually the fact that you are taking your time and finishing the razor correctly....
My 2 pence
Gary, no offense intended to you at all, if it works then more power to ya, but I think it is working for another reason then what you are thinking....
Also just as a side note to the above...Yes I understand the whole theory and practice of "Double Bevels" from TZ and "Microbevels" too, even the theory of using a pasted strop to "supposedly" create a rounded bevel (that doesn't really bear out it testing)
I have read all this stuff over and over and even tried most of it... but honestly I think it all comes down to proper finishing regardless of the system used... You either get all the rough off or you don't, you have to remove the microchips, period ...
bart recomended it for the chipping problem with ti's as i'm sure he experianced a similar thing ,i'm sure he would explain better than me . I just thought the chap could give it go . I my self don't use tape at all unless its for serious bevel work . then i will remove tape once bevel is set, set bevel with out tape and finish from there on. i have used ti paste and it did work well for me its worth ago . so no ofense glenn and your most likly right in what you say. i have tryed my self and it does give a good edge i have also got a great edge with no tape on both my ti's it just took a thew rehones to get there .
Makes perfect sense what your saying then Gary,,,
Basically another arrow in the quiver of getting to a smooth comfortable shave...
:beer2: We all like more options (arrows)
For what i thought about the picture is that maybe you should try to change the direction you are honing. Now all the scratches seem to run parallel (sorry if my English term is incorrect). Try honing on different directions; lessening the pressure towards your final strokes. That might help.
I might be wrong as well. Wouldn't be the first time (or last).
From time to time I read posts where people describe their razors as just like wiping the whiskers off or like using a velvet squeegee. Or some other such thing, meaning they can't feel the blade pull at all as it cuts. I'd like to know how they do it. Can someone explain how he gets such a smooth shave?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdennis
The correct combination of Skill, Luck, Fate, Kismet, and perhaps the alignment of the stars...
First the right razor for your face slides across the correct combination of hones with your skill to bring that edge to it's ultimate point and no more the the proper beard prep combines with a perfect whipped cream lather and the skill that you have practiced at all this time allows for that perfect Velvet Squeegee Pass :beer2::beer2: Good luck with finding it often...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonusmarple
I'm wondering why the razor began to dull after so few uses. (10-15) Poor stropping? Maybe this is still the problem if in fact this was the case causing it to dull so quickly? Just a thought.
It also helps if you are "the Glen", Thors older brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Glen said: "The correct combination of Skill, Luck, Fate, Kismet, and perhaps the alignment of the stars..."Quote:
Originally Posted by fdennis
I would add shave prep. i.e whisker and skin prep.
I keep an Artist Feather open blade razor handy for
the days when I put-zed up my honing and stropping
of a razor.
Some days the Feather-str8 does wipe whiskers other days
it is simply a darn sharp blade that: tugs, pulls, growls,
snaps, bites and nicks.
I mention this because in a container of Feather blades
they are going to all be birds of a feather one just as sharp
and harsh or what ever they are as the next. So the difference
is my technique and my shave prep. Not full hollow,
not wedge, not natural .vs. man made, not cowhide
.vs. shell etc.
But me myself and I: my technique and my shave prep
and yes a sharp blade is part of it.
Which reminds me... My D.R. Harris is lathering as fine as
my MWF. Took a couple of tries to dial it in.... it is
turning into a very fine face lathering soap. Very fine...