so if I'm a beginner how many stones do I need
:)
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so if I'm a beginner how many stones do I need
:)
For now I'd say a beginner only needs one, a Swatty barber's hone for the occasional touch up. Check the SRP Classifieds before hitting eBay.
Before you get into honing, read up on hones in the Wiki here. Digest that information first. Then you'll have a pretty good idea as to what you'll be needing based on what you plan to do.
I picked up a Norton 220/1000 and use the 1000 side for setting the bevel (the 220 side is only used when a razor has fairly large chips in the edge). I have a 4K for sharpening, an 8K for polishing and a 12K Chinese hone for final finishing.
Namaste,
Morty -_-
I think as a beginner the only hone you need is a finishing hone. This can be many different types of hones. Could be a barber hone, could be a synthetic high grit hone (12k to 30k or higher), Japanese stones, coticules, or thungurians. As you get more and more confident, or want to spend more and more money, get the next hone down in the progression.
But you could go the rest of your life only needing to use the finishing hone.
I'm piggybacking, but it's related...
Could a razor go its whole life (let's say 10 years) using only a barber's hone for the occasional touch-up? Suppose the blade has been properly honed on day 1 (4k/8k etc.)... is it possible to use the barber's hone frequently to keep the blade nice and sharp, and forego any other serious honing? Or must it still be honed with a lower grit every now and then?
Just curious :-)
I've heard of guys who've been doing this for 20 years with only a barbers hone and strop... I can't speak from experience, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by anjp
To the OP, that's a question that we can't answer fully without knowing what you're wanting to do... I guess the answer of what you "need", by default without any more information, is 1 (barbers hone or other finisher).
There are simply too many permutations of setups and intentions to just take a stab in the dark (if you want a meaningful answer, that is)... :tameshigiri:
I'm going to buck the trend here, & say none.
A barbers hone will do the job, but a paddle, or loom strop pasted with CrO will be easier for you to maintain an edge with.
Until he rounds the edge, then you would need a more agressive hone than simply a finisher to bring the edge back. You can not get by with just a pasted strop indefinately, but you may be able to with just a barber's hone or other finisher.Quote:
Originally Posted by ben.mid
Pasted strops are good, but they will not be an introduction to honing, which I can see the OP wishes to gain. IMO they delayed my into to honing as once they stopped working I had to send my razor out to be honed, whereas had I invested in a finisher I would have been able to polish my edge.
I would say a beginner doesn't need any hones for at least the first three months. After that a pasted strop or pasted paddle strop w/ CrOx will keep things going for a bunch more time. If the razor needs honing in the first year sent it out to an experienced honemister listed in the classifieds and w/ a lot of time on SRP.
In my time here on SRP I have seen that beginners have three major areas that cause problems. Bad technique, rolling the edge on a strop and bad honing. Lots of times bad technique causes the person to go to the hones and it really only makes things worse. Pick up two razors that are shave ready. Only use one razor until it is damaged or starts tugging ( after several months) and them hit the pastes or send it out for a honing. Learn to shave before trying to hone. The cost of honing one razor is minimal to the cost of a hone(s) and a lot less fristrating for a newbie.
I can only tell you my experience. I am not a honemiester, but I have been shaving with str8's for quite awhile. 1 barbers hone frome Ebay under the bathroom sink (for touch ups). 1 4000 8000 grit from Nortons in the garage once you get to the point of the razor starts pulling and you find that that razor has moved to the back of the rotation. :beer2:
I know where you're coming from, but that's just a matter of opinion. Personally, I use hones. That's the way I learned because when I started I got all my advice from this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio
If you do some reading on the German forums, there are guys there that set bevels with paste & then do the whole progression. It does give a different shaped edge from that set by a hone, but there's nothing wrong with it.
I am not sure if this topic belongs to "advanced honing topics" :hmmm:
But to answer some quetsions:
A beginner does need hones that will match their requirements.
For example a Straight-Beginner will want to avoid any hones at all
and let this work be done by someone who knows.
A Honing-Noob that wants to keep the pre sharpened razors sharp
might get along with just a nice finishing stone for quite a while.
He will not get along forever, as sometime the bevel must be resetted, I guess.
This is because I know for sure that barbers in old germany used to resharpen their blades with what they had (i.e a coticule or an esher) but send them back to the manufacturer when it´s time has come for regrinding.
In fact there the blade qould not only be resharpened, but the hollow grind would be renewed.
This is so to keep the exact angle of the edge. Totally unnesecarry, but seems like the old barbers in Germany did so.
I have no Idea how long a touch up hone will keep a razor sharp, so you might want to figure it out. But I think you might get along a long time,
if (and this is crucial) you do it right!
A honing apprentice might want to check out some of the known honing systems like:
Norton 4k/8k
If you´re not living in the us or want to rtry something else,
I recommend the naniwa superstone system (ie. 1k, 3k or 5k, 8k)
or a Shapton Glasstone set (1k, 4k, 8k).
If you want to learn the hard way, you can egt yourself a coticule!
It might very well be the most versatile single stone thereis.
You can find a lot of information why this is on coticule.be
I am one of those guys who for years used nothing but a barbers hone and did quite well with that alone, then I found SRP! A barbers hone is all you will ever need to maintain a razor, everything else is for edge repair and restoration.
The short answer is that a barber's hone will keep a razor going for as long as you find the shave it gives you acceptable. When the barber's hone no longer recovers the edge to acceptable keenness (your face will let you know), it will be time to have the razor honed again.Quote:
Originally Posted by anjp
There are so many variables, no one can tell you how long that will be.
Namaste,
Morty -_-
I guess I want a longer answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morty
I am curious what the basis of your claim might be. That is, what is your experience with barber hones? Also, why do you distinguish the use of a barber hone and razor honing?
My personal experience with barber hones is with the Swarty I acquired to touch up the razors I purchased from the SRP Classifieds. So far, it seems to do the trick, using it as recommending by others posting about them. But as you will see from my join date, it hasn't been all that long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Why do I distinguish the use of a barber hone from razor honing? That's possibly a mistake of semantics on my part. anjp was asking if you could keep a razor sharp "for the life of the razor" with just use of a barber's hone. I had forgotten from where I had based my opinion (I just found it). In this article in the Wiki, Lynn Abrams states "Yeah, I think barber hones still suck. They are small, flat, unpredictable, and harder to use for me. There are those of you who love them. Oh well..."
That's why I distinguish between the two. For now, touching up with 4-8 strokes on my barber's hone is all my shave ready razors need when the strop isn't enough. But when the time comes that the barber's hone won't do the trick, it's time to do something different, no?
Now, if my opinion is wrong, please tell me, it's the only way I'm going to learn.
anjp, I believe I owe you an apology. When I replied to your post, I thought I was still speaking with fish4life and I was remembering how raw I was just one month in, trying to absorb everything I was reading. I didn't mean to appear like I was talking down to you. My apologies if that is the impression I gave you.
Namaste,
Morty -_-
Everyone here in SRP is Great! Thanks all for the great info. I found from Wiki, start with a Belgian Hones then work to other Hones if your not happy.
I'm going to send my Dovo after a few months to SRD to be Honed first after that I'll try to get a Belgian Hone and recreate same level of sharpness.
Wonderful !! :)
Thanks for Wiki and thank you all for Responding to my concerns.
Have a great day
OK, thanks for the clarification. First, your opinion is not wrong, it simply differs from mine. I asked my questions partially because I wondered if your opinion was the result of your own experience or if it was a restatement of someone else's. It turned out to be both. Lynn thinks barber hones suck. That's his opinion. I simply disagree and will leave it at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morty
A razor can go its whole life, of well over 10 years, using nothing but a barber hone. If you start with a sharp razor, a barber hone can keep that razor serviceably sharp for as long as you wish to use that razor. You don't need anything other than a barber hone and a strop to maintain your razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by anjp
Any time you notice any diminishment in the quality of the shave, that is the time to do a few strokes with a barber hone. That's all there is to it. Touch it up whenever it isn't as sharp as it should be.
Another vote for the barber hone. Once I get a razor sharp, a barber hone is all it sees. Except for the ones I drop or the few (< 5%?) that prefer a Thuringian.
thank you all for the info. Timber Frame Tools: Power tools and hand tools for timber framing, log building and boat building is one of the places I've been looking at Hones. I talked with timebertools one of their reps their said the Coticule stone does not need a slury due to their stones being one best to sharpen tools with, or get a shave ready edge.
+1 hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
+1 here tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish4life
Hmmmmmm that doesn't quite sound right...
I started with straight razors in 1981 with one finish stone and one razor strop never needed anything else to maintain a shave ready razor...
Now as soon as you buy a few non-shave ready razors you will need more... You don't even want to ask how many stones I have now :boohoo:
Hence the difference between need and want...
I would do a bit more reading about that single Coticule system before you drop money too, many of the people that use it, use way more then just one stone..
You can do the exact same slurry techniques on any stone that can raise a slurry and is about 8k or higher to shave off of...
I don't quite know what the Timbertool guy was saying, or what you understood him to be saying, but I do not agree with the way it is written above...
Edit : I better re-phrase all that to say in a "reasonable amount of time" because some engineer type will inevitably say that after 1000-10000 laps on a plain Coticule you could in theory sharpen a dull razor :)
1981 nice I was 2 at the time. Okay here’s the deal I’m the kind of guy that wants the best thing one time so I’ve been looking around talking and reading Wiki. I’ve been calling vendors and .com’s pages , everyone has their own option on what works. I’m just after what’s best and what’s most joyful.
Honestly if I know what I know now, and lived in Alaska where shipping for anything is going to hurt ya...
I would buy a Norton full set off Amazon for $120 the 220/1k and the 4k/8k can sharpen any solid razor I have ever had cross my hones... plus you even get a Lapping plate to start you off..
If you can't get a smooth edge off that set you need more practice honing, not more hones...
Are there better sets ??? Yep
Can you add a high grit finisher later ??? Yep
Can you use a barber's hone after the 8k ??? Yep
Can you get a smoother shave with a pasted strop after the 8k ??? Yep
Do you need any of that to SHAVE???? Nope
There are my 2 cents...
Now if money is no object then buy everything that you can find and have loads of fun figuring each one out....
There is a page in the Wiki that breaks all this down for you BTW, I wrote it some time back....
Buy a $2k J-Nat & paint a smiley face on it :pQuote:
Originally Posted by fish4life
Seriously tho, what's best now may well be a different kettle of rocks in one or 2 year's time.
Some thoughts on honing razors..
Aspiring honers are often not clear about what they are trying to accomplish when it comes to honing razors. In particular, they are often unsure of what they are doing and how often they should be doing it. Some questions you might want to answer for yourself before you start buying hones: this also means that if you are not sure of the answer here, you should shave more, and wait to buy hones until you can answer these questions....
■ Are you an "end-user"; someone who only hones a previously shave-ready blade back to shave-ready?
■ Are you a hobbyist who is chasing the absolute finest edge that may be obtained where money is no object?
■ Are you a frugal shaver who is after the cheapest way to complete your morning shave?
■ Are you a collector who needs to take E-bay specials from butt-ugly to shave-ready?
■ Are you a Honemiester; someone who gets paid to do all of these things for others?
■ Are you a razor restorer who needs to take damaged blades and bring them back to life and shave-readiness?
Each of these types of honer profiles have different requirements for the stones they will own. Theoretically, you can survive using the "one stone" approach, but each razor does have an optimum stone set - and more importantly, a technique for using the required hones. So generally, when somebody asks what stone or how to use what stone, the question to ask them is: "What are you trying to accomplish with the stone(S)?"
Refreshing vs. Starting from Scratch:
The types of hones required depends first and foremost on the type of honing you want to do.
Hones needed for refreshing a dull blade:
If the only task you want to perform is refreshing edges that have previously been established by a Honemiester (the process is often referred to as "touching up"), you need only get a fine grit finishing stone or a barber's hone for this. Either of these hones can be used to keep your razor(s) shave-ready for years.
Hones needed for restoring razors:
If you want to set a bevel, or have many different types of razors, you will need a full set of hones.
A bevel setting stone approximately 1k
DMT's 325 600 1200, Shapton 500, 1K and 2K, Coticules with slurry, Norton 1k, Naniwa 1k
A sharpening stone approximately 4k
Norton 4K, Shapton 4K Naniwa 3k or 5k, Belgian Blue with slurry
A polishing stone approximately 8k
Norton 8k, Shapton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Yellow Coticule
A finishing stone 10k and above (this is often subject to debate, however)
Shapton GS 16k-30k Shapton 15k Naniwa SS 10k-12k or Chosera 10k, Thuringens, Escher's, Many different natural Japanese finishers, Charlney Forest, Extra Fine Coticule, even some of the Arkansas stones...
You have several choices of how to accomplish this setup whether you use natural, man-made stone, or a Diamond-style stone, even honing films, but you are going to have to be able to cover those 4 grit ranges. There really is no true shortcut here if you expect to take razors acquired in need of restoration from butter knife dull (or damaged) to shaving sharp: You are going to end up needing these types of stones.
Pastes can be used after the hones and before the final stropping also these can be used for re-freshing the edge before going back to the hones for a touch-up... Some shavers even use pastes to "sharpen" the razor after the bevel set has been done...
A few different types
Dovo Pastes:
Green 5-8 micron
Red 3-5 micron
Black 1-3 micron
Dovo pastes are a much more mild cutter then say a diamond paste of the same micron size...
Diamond Paste:
From 3 micron down to actually .10 micron if you really wanted to...
These pastes are fast and many people use them incorrectly and manage too get a harsh edge, when used correctly and on the right razor steel these will most likely be the sharpest edge you will ever feel...
Diamond sprays:
Mostly found in 1.0 .50 and .25 micron watch the Carat content here, the higher the better (SRD has the best I have found and yes Lynn and Don are friends of mine, but heck it is still the best spray I have found)
Chromium Oxide Paste/Powder .50 micron (CrOx)
Probably the most universal of the pastes, get the most pure you can find, and no the bars at Woodcrafters are not pure...
Cerium Oxide Paste/Powder (approx).25 micron (CeOx)
Super fine, super soft, and super smooth, polishing media...The bar at Woodcrafter's is of unknown quality at this time
Other Pastes and Powders:
Iron Oxide
Aluminum Oxide
Both of these can also be used again be very careful when buying this stuff as the purity and the micron sizes are very important...
Carbon blacking/lamp black:
This might be the oldest of all the sharpening "pastes" when used on a leather strop it increases draw
Wood Ash:
Another old fashioned one very slightly abrasive when used on Linen strops and Leather strops..
White chalk:
Can be rubbed on a linen strop to increase the abrasive qualities
Newspaper:
The ink itself is a very fine abrasive and so is the paper..
Keep in mind that different razor steels like/dislike different pastes, and the different media that is used to apply it including Balsa, Linen, Leather (paddle) Leather (hanger) and Felt paddle and hanger all give different results on different razor steels....
The above are only my personal opinions and observations... There are no set rules in Razordom...
Thank you that clears things up for me. Thank for your time
Very well done, Glen.
One question though: There is not really a Chosera 12k, is there?
You probably meant Chosera 10k
Under the same parameters Glen outlined, I'd get a double sided DMT Fine/Coarse stone and a Coticule because it would get me the Norton + edges he discussed as an adjunct to the Norton setup, and could be done for less money than the Nortons.
Most importantly, though, it would give me a lot more to do because learning to use the Coticule is much more of a commitment than the Norton setup :D
I would also add that it's more rewarding than using synthetics, IMHO. When you take a piece of stone with unknown qualities and every permutation of them that you can imagine, and use it to get a great shaving edge, it's a more meaningful experience (IMHO) than taking something that is very consistent (synthetics that are virtually the same across the board) to do the same thing.
Deposit those pennies...:gl:
so if i understand (i am new also) should i buy a nawina 10k or 12k to touch up after some months...I did buy a shave ready from SRD.
Whatever you do, don't start on a quest for the perfect edge. There is no such thing, and trying to find it is frustrating, expensive, but a lot of fun if you're into that sort of thing. Stick with a barber's hone. Learn to use it. A shave ready edge touched up with a barber's hone will last you a long time (maybe years before you need to have the edge sharpened.) Don't try to lap a barber's hone. You'll probably ruin it. Voice of experience.
If you don't let the edge degrade too much the 12k would do it. I haven't used 10k.Quote:
Originally Posted by squill
Of course, the question is what is 'too long' and I can't answer it over the internet. After honing many razors I have an idea what hone is appropriate when I have a particular razor, but that's not your position. The good thing about the norton combo 4k/8k hone is that it's two hones that can sharpen any undamaged previously shaving razor with less than 20 strokes.
so should i just buy a naniwa 10k or 12k......is that equal to a barbers stone....and just get the norton combo 4k/8k for knives
The deal with touch ups is, you should ideally hit the exact same angle the blade was sharpened at.
That is you should ask how many layers of tape (if it was used) were used and apply these befor attempting to touch up. <- correct me if I am mistaken here
Also note that a touch up is honing, too, and can damage the edge more than it helps, if done incorrectly.
1µm diamond on felt is an awesome touch up device, that is very easy to use.
It may give you long lasting edges, because 1µm diamond is capable of removing minor damage naturally occurring during the shave.
You may finish (if desired) with croox or 0.5µ diamond on felt afterwards.
Otherwise it is fairly common to use a barbers hone, chinese12k, a coticule or a fine synthetic stone for touch ups.
Some even use a 8k stone for touch ups.
I would recommend the Naniwa SS 10k or 12k.
Personally I prefer the 10k, as it is my favourite stone.
It gives the most perfect polish and nice shaving edges (best in combination with a fine abrasive paste).
You can slurry the 10k and make it cut a bit faster.
The SS 12k has a good reputation here, too.
So basically it´s your choice.
I don´t do touch ups, but resharpen blades frequently. It´s a personal thing. I... I just like honing.