full hollow TI giving me trouble

I was never satisfied with the edge I've been putting on my full-hollow TI. It is a little less comfortable than my half-hollow TI and Dovo. I tried again last night to put a better edge on it, and went back to the 4K Norton and checked under the microscope (10x) that the whole length of the blade looked like it was getting roughened at 4K and then back to the 8K Norton and finishing on a 15K Shapton. The edge looks very nice under the 10x microscope, but I could never get it to pass the HHT. Of course, it passes after stropping. I was careful to be very gentle and only use the weight of the blade when honing.

Any advice?

E

It sounds like you're doing everything right, but I'm pretty sure there's something missing. Without being able to examine the blade, howver, it's virtually impossible to tell what might be going wrong. I know that a TI properly honed will shave very well, indeed.

Most blades have a gentle smile on them. At a very low pressure you will not get the whole blade on the hone. Are you using the gentle rolling method where you move the contact with the hone from heel to tip? Even and gently, this should get the whole edge done up nicely, but don't overshoot the tip.

X

I'm afraid to do any honing, where I move the blade off the stone. I use a heel leading stroke down the length of the hone. How else can I deal with the 'smile'?

E

Just random thoughts OK? After all if its broke don't sweat trying to fix it.

I'd say the thing missing is your hone trueness. When was the last time you trued the hones? This is assuming your using equal pressure on both sides of the blade . . . is that true for every stroke you've made? At some point, probably around 15K the very edge is getting misaligned and the strop is realigning it, IMO. An inaccurate turn, an untrued hone, or perhaps a slight variance in your technique running in only one direction from the other.

After you diagnose those possibilities, I'd add more 15K passes at the end of whatever cycle your using now. Like double the number of strokes.

Just between you and me I would also consider back honing on the 15K very, very lightly to realign the blade edge and see if it passes the hanging hair test. Don't tell anyone else I said that though, they'll all freak out! OK, our little secret. Psssssst, mums the word ok?

If its still not passing the HHT its probably just in need of Mr. 4K again from the start.

And if I get a bunch of hate mail PMs about backhoning I'll know who spilled the beans . . . got it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ericm

I'm afraid to do any honing, where I move the blade off the stone. I use a heel leading stroke down the length of the hone. How else can I deal with the 'smile'?

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That's just how I do it. As you begin each stroke, make sure the heel and not the tip is in good contact with the hone and as you progress along the stone, gradually move that point of contact through the belly of the edge toward the tip for the finish of the stroke.

Even pressure all the way and the same in both directions. I found that since your wrist should remain in exactly the same position for both directions, a lot of the difference for me lay in the position of my thumb and forefinger initially. I learned I was underhoning on the left to right pass. I'm now careful to place my thumb on the edge side of the shank on top and the forefinger on the spine side of the shank underneath. This creates a very mild torque which keeps the blade on the hone the same in both directions without even trying.

X

Good advice guys. I'll give it a shot!
E

If the advice you have just been given does not work then come back and let us know if the razor is new? size? stainless steel?
lead hardened? pic's?
My guess is that your razor needs more time on the 4000 to form the bevel. Once the bevel is created then the rest goes quickly. You probably are not using enough pressure on the 4000 initially. I use 1-2 lbs until the bevel is formed then lighten up to using just enough pressure to keep the razor on the hone.

Hope this helps,:)

And........don't feel bad, just keep trying different things. I have been working on a TI Evide lately that is dealing me fits. I continue to endeavor to purservere........lol. Lynn

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

And........don't feel bad.... I have been working on a TI Evide lately that is dealing me fits. I continue to endeavor to purservere........lol. Lynn

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You just made all us wanna-be honemeisters feel a little better Lynn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

If the advice you have just been given does not work then come back and let us know if the razor is new? size? stainless steel?
lead hardened? pic's?
My guess is that your razor needs more time on the 4000 to form the bevel. Once the bevel is created then the rest goes quickly. You probably are not using enough pressure on the 4000 initially. I use 1-2 lbs until the bevel is formed then lighten up to using just enough pressure to keep the razor on the hone.

Hope this helps,:)

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Still working on it. It is (was) a new TI Evide 6/8, carbon steel. It didn't shave when I got it. I can tell from looking under a 10x that when I go to the 4K Norton, that the whole blade edge gets honed (dulled from an 8K shine), so I think the whole blade is at least contacting the hone. But I've never been able to get this particular razor to pass the HHT very well off the hones. It passes, but just barely. I can strop it and it passes great, but the shave is just not as good as my others... it's not as smooth or close.

I'm a little afraid of honing this thing to a nub. It's in a state now that may be OK. I'll shave with it again tomorrow and let you all know how it goes.

Thanks!
E

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I'd say the thing missing is your hone trueness. When was the last time you trued the hones?

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I think that was part of the problem, my 8K wasn't flat enough. My first test of hone trueness was placing it on a glass plate, when wet, and seeing that the whole stone 'stuck' to the glass. This isn't the best test of trueness, though since the stone can look like it's stuck to the glass when there is a lot of excess water on the stone, even if the stone is quite warped. I drew lines on my Norton 8K with a pencil and sanded the stone on glass until the lines were gone. After that, I could get the razor to pass the HHT off the hones.

Even though my razors pass the HHT of the hones, they do much better with this test after stropping. I assume this is normal?

E

Well, I've tried everything at least twice. I simply can't get this one to hone well. I thought it might be the fact that it's a full-hollow. In an effort to convince myself that it's not my technique, I bought full-hollow 5/8 at the antique store and honed it up in about 20 minutes. It's nice and sharp. To be fair, it only needed a touch up with about 10 passes on the 8k norton and a few passes on the 15k shapton.

I notice that this razor that won't hone well feels like it's sliding on glass when I use the 4k norton. Unless I work up a slurry with some sandpaper, I can't feel any drag at all on the blade. It makes me think that I'm not removing any metal, and not honing. When I work up a slurry, it drags a little and I can see some metal left behind on the hone. I'm guessing this steel is just super hard. It is supposed to be a carbon steel blade. No matter though, this thing has essentially defeated me! I even went down to 1000 grit norton and worked my way back up. Still, can't get this one sharp for some reason.

Any other advice? I'm getting desperate!

Thanks,
E

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ericm

Well, I've tried everything at least twice. I simply can't get this one to hone well. I thought it might be the fact that it's a full-hollow. In an effort to convince myself that it's not my technique, I bought full-hollow 5/8 at the antique store and honed it up in about 20 minutes. It's nice and sharp. To be fair, it only needed a touch up with about 10 passes on the 8k norton and a few passes on the 15k shapton.

I notice that this razor that won't hone well feels like it's sliding on glass when I use the 4k norton. Unless I work up a slurry with some sandpaper, I can't feel any drag at all on the blade. It makes me think that I'm not removing any metal, and not honing. When I work up a slurry, it drags a little and I can see some metal left behind on the hone. I'm guessing this steel is just super hard. It is supposed to be a carbon steel blade. No matter though, this thing has essentially defeated me! I even went down to 1000 grit norton and worked my way back up. Still, can't get this one sharp for some reason.

Any other advice? I'm getting desperate!

Thanks,
E

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PM Lynn for his address!

RT

I'm having trouble understanding at this point. You don't think the bevel is hitting the hone at 4k?

I don't own a TI in full hollow but I can imagine with that extra hard carbon steel on a full hollow grind it be a bear to hone.

I recommend a quick backhone of 8k and then lots of 8k passes with a light touch. Check to make sure the bevel looks right. Do you have any pastes?

If that fails a dab of pressure followed by none again might be in order. I think the complexity of full hollow razors becomes exponentially difficult to hone the wider the blade gets. I have a 6/8 full hollow that gives me fits too.

After all that I'd send it out too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I'm having trouble understanding at this point. You don't think the bevel is hitting the hone at 4k?

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It looks like it does, and if I'm dulling up an 8k shine on the 4k, it appears to be uniform.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I recommend a quick backhone of 8k and then lots of 8k passes with a light touch. Check to make sure the bevel looks right. Do you have any pastes?

If that fails a dab of pressure followed by none again might be in order. I think the complexity of full hollow razors becomes exponentially difficult to hone the wider the blade gets. I have a 6/8 full hollow that gives me fits too.

After all that I'd send it out too.

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I'll try it and let you know what happens.

Thanks!
E

Ok, hang in there. Remember the pride of accomplishment is greatest when the challenge is the highest! LOL

Well, I got it sharp again. Kind of. I've honed this thing to sharpness about 4 times now, and every time I get to the same level of sharpness. It passes the HHT just barely off the hones. At least my results are consistent. I can't get this particular razor as sharp as my other razors.

Do you all have this experience, or can every razor be sharpened to highest level?

E

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

And........don't feel bad, just keep trying different things. I have been working on a TI Evide lately that is dealing me fits. I continue to endeavor to purservere........lol. Lynn

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Lynn when you finish that razor are you sure you dont just want to keep it lol. I would almost feel bad if I shaved with it after all your hard work! Its almost become an omen of bad luck, Im afraid to have it in my house again lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rtaylor61

PM Lynn for his address!

RT

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RT,

I dont know that Lynn ever wants to see a TI Evide again lol. If he charged by the hour, Im pretty sure that TI would be costing me WAY more than its worth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLStorm

I dont know that Lynn ever wants to see a TI Evide again lol. If he charged by the hour, Im pretty sure that TI would be costing me WAY more than its worth.

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If Lynn has trouble with TI Evides, then it's probably going to be much more difficult for a beginner like me to deal with them. Is there a consensus on this? Are TI Evides more difficult to sharpen?

Bad luck it was the second razor I bought. It makes me want to stay away from full hollows. My half hollows are fantastic though, and not too hard to keep sharp!

E

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ericm

If Lynn has trouble with TI Evides, then it's probably going to be much more difficult for a beginner like me to deal with them. Is there a consensus on this? Are TI Evides more difficult to sharpen?

Bad luck it was the second razor I bought. It makes me want to stay away from full hollows. My half hollows are fantastic though, and not too hard to keep sharp!

E

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Lynn has told me he has sharpened countless TI Evides without issues. I have heard they tend to be a bit more challanging to hone that regular razors, but nothing as horrible as what you are describing. I am wondering if there was a bad batch of steel and we both ended up with one?

Same story here <g> I bought two similar TI razors, the Evide and an identical (except for etching) Special Coffier. One was near shave ready right out of the box but the Evide was pretty dull. I worked on it for quite a while but only the master, Lynn was able to get it right.

Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Same story here <g> I bought two similar TI razors, the Evide and an identical (except for etching) Special Coffier. One was near shave ready right out of the box but the Evide was pretty dull. I worked on it for quite a while but only the master, Lynn was able to get it right.

Tony

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I have no doubt that Lynn will be able to get mine nice and sharp, what I am worried about is if I ever need to hone it when it gets dull....I may have to either sell it at that point or send it back to Lynn to be honed. At that point it may be costing me more money than its worth.

Mine is now shavable, but it's not the most comfortable shave. I think I'll just hang on to it and and as my honing technique gets better, I'll return to it and see if I can get the edge in better shape.

I hear they use yellow coticule to finish off the razors from the TI factory. Considering my other TI razor came in fantastically sharp, I was thinking of trying to get hold of a yellow coticule to test it out. In all the forums here, nearly everybody raves about the coticule.

Does any company make a synthetic garnet-based stone?

E