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I was talking with a guy I know who is a hone collector. He is also a scientist in the field of polymers. I mentioned the fact that the old barbers used lather on the coticules and he told me that the lather would react with the surface and have a similar effect of creating slurry. I don't pretend to understand that but if I got it right that is what he said. :shrug:
I'm conflicted. The more I read about coticules the more uncertain I get. I was set to buy one--and may still--but I haven't yet convinced myself that it will improve my edge. I think if a coticule were as effective as some say, then all the knowledgeable honers would be using one. Maybe that's what I should find out--some how to find out what the better honemeisters use, but my one attempt to find out what hone a person used went unanswered. I guess the only way to know is to try, but that's a pretty expensive experiment (for an 8X3")
Actually I don't think anyone is selling the 8x3 anymore unless you get a vintage one.
At one time the coticule was the darling around here and was the ultimate final finisher but guys get crazy and keep looking for the ultimate and more stones become available and it's just a vicious cycle.
I use the coticule alot as my final stone along with a vintage escher I have. Both provide me with an edge I am very satisfied with. The Escher is a step above the coticule but heck in the end you should be able to get a very good shave off an 8K like the Norton.
I made a thread called "Post your Progression" in the honing section - lots of experienced guys chimed in.
If you do want to try a coticule, you don't need an 8 x 3. I found that something like 6 x 2 is totally sufficient for me.
Depends on the approach you want to take. If you just want to maintain what you have, acquire vintage ebay or antique shop stuff and get it sharp from butter knife dull or if you're dealing with factory new razors. For some of us, me for example, the honing is a sport. I like to experiment with different sharpening stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by fdennis
I've found that the Nortons, Shaptons and Naniwas will all get you there. With naturals I've messed with coticules and Eschers mainly. I happen to prefer the edge off of an Escher but the coticule is a really fine and nice edge too in the right hands. A 5 or a 6 x 2 is good for razors as well and more reasonablly priced than an 8x3. I've gotten good results from a 4x2 but prefer at least a 5" length.
Thanks, I don't know the specifics terms for honing, sorryQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I began using my hones dry after thinking a bit about the vintage hones I have, Thuringens and coticules. There are so many well used, well preserved hones out there that are wood mounted. I have a very old (judging by the style of German writing) little (approx. 2 cm x 8 cm) black Thuringen on the typical thin paddle. The instructions mention varied pressure but nothing about water. After I tried it with a little water, I realized that continued use with any liquid would result in a warped paddle and most likely a broken stone (the stone is only a couple mm thick). It was clear that this had always been used dry. I then started looking closely at my other paddle and box hones for water damage. None of them have signs of it.
Now, I could be wrong, barbers had/have their own habits (well documented) and many of the German hones have explicit instructions for slurry and water. But I do believe that 50-100 years of touch ups with water would have left many of these mounted hones in worse condition than they are.
To come to my point, I began finishing and touching up dry, mostly with coticules and BBW. Fantastic results for me, with very clear improvement on my edges. I am still playing around with it, but I guess I have done six razors this way on different hones and am very happy. I was just on holiday and took a hard coticule/BBW and a Dovo that needed something (honed by Lynn but having been my first razor, well abused). I did 50 "stropping" strokes dry (thanks to Gary...) then 50 dry, light laps. Halfway through the shave I remembered that I forgot to strop. Not because my face told me, the shave was brilliant! Stropped after the first pass and had BBS under my chin in two passes, no irritation.
So for me, I will continue figuring out how to max out my hones dry. Personally, I don't understand how using a coticule dry would ruin either it or the razor.
regards,
Torolf
Interesting post Torolf. What came to my mind was my seeing barbers in the 1980s using lather as the vehicle. Not nearly as messy as you might think with little or no runoff over the edges.
As I'm sure you know the purpose of the liquid is to carry the steel and particulate abraded by the honing off of the surface of the hone to allow efficient and uninterrupted contact between steel and stone. With synthetics it is obvious that they load up with swarf. I am told that natural stones do not load up but the steel rubbed off of the blade has to go somewhere.
In my own experimenting with, as gssixgun described, allowing the finisher to go more damp than bone dry, I too have had good results. This with very few strokes in that drier condition. All of this pushing the envelope looking for that perfect edge makes honing and shaving with straight razors so much more interesting than the old days of grabbing a disposable and a can of goo. :)
That could be it. Just as much as a barber has lather handy, so does anyone shaving...
Lather would also hold the moisture until it was wiped off, I would think. I haven't tried lather during honing thinking it would be a mess (and I usually don't touch up while shaving) but now I want to give it a try. Thanks:)
regards,
Torolf
The thing about the coticule is that every stone is different, so I'm not surprised to hear so much conflicting advice on what technique works best, including "dry" or "lather" honing...Quote:
Originally Posted by fdennis
All I can say is I have a natural BBW/Coticule (6" x 2") that I use exclusively for my razors, and I get absolutely fantastic results. But it took me 6+ months of experimenting to figure out the slurry dilution rates and honing pressure on both the BBW and Coti sides to get these results. Every stone is a puzzle, and the journey to unlocking it can be extremely rewarding (or extremely frustrating...).
I've tried a bunch of different techiques, but with my *current* stone, the BBW+Slurry (thinning over time, but not too thin...), then Coticule + *extremely* light slurry dilluting to water works great. But on a previous rock, the BBW+slurry was not as good as just Coticule + thicker slurry , with dillution (Unicot, I think is the term) worked well. All depends on the specific rock I think...
Another thing-- I think some razors just work better with coticules than others. I've had a Livi "regrind" razor (relatively softer steel) that I just could *not* get sharp with my coti, but on the other hand, I have a Wacker razor with very hard steel that would just chip with a synthetic hone, but hones up utterly fantastic with a coticule hone...
Lastly, thing about the coticule is that I am convinced that while it does not result in the keenest edge possible, it can result in the smoothest edge which I think is more important for a comfortable shave. I say this because when I've gotten razors back that have been professionaly honed, they can easily pass the hanging hair test, but I get razor burn using them, whereas my own coticule honed razors do not pass the hanging hair test, but I get a great shave without razor burn...
Chief