curious about natural bevelsetters

I like natural hones. It's just a preference, and I'm comfortable with that.

All the natural hones I read about fall into a few different categories, broadly, 1) Finishers (i.e Eschers, Charnley Forests, Jnats etc..) 2) polishers (Cotis), and 3) Sharpeners (BBW, TOS, DT, various Scotch hones). The only bevelsetting hones I read about are Coticules with slurry.

Am I missing something? Are the various Dalmores used for setting bevels? There must be a Jnat, but that's all, well, entirely too mysterious for me to understand yet.

I'm not about to go pick up a new hone. I seem to have developed HAD, and need another stone like a hole in the head. I'm just curious.

To me coticule can't beat a 1k synthetic when it comes to bevel setting.
I am not aware that there is a Jnat suitable for bevel setting on razors, mey be there is one out there. I have one that is rather coarse but slow as hell.

This is a little issue we have.
So far i cannot find any natural good bevel setter . i am hoping may be one day .

How about a soft Arkansas stone?

I would think the grit would be low enough for bevel setting.

The Dalmore Blue is pretty coarse, but not really all that fast. Some coticules are pretty fast, but I still wouldn't use one to set a bevel on. Aotos are good just after the bevel is set, but the one I tried was too soft to set a bevel; I have heard of harder ones, but that they too get softer as they are wet for a while (which they will be if you are setting a bevel).

I recall Sham trying an Amakusa Red and saying it wasn't good for razors. The only other possibility I know of (not that that is an all inclusive list by any means) is the Amakusa White, but I'm not aware of anyone having tried one.

Have you considered a white amakusa? Grit range is said to be 700-1K on the Japanese scale, I feel that mine is in the 1K-1200 range. I don't recommend the amakusa red for anything but coarse work like removing chips.

I ordered mine years ago from here:
Amakusa White Natural Medium Stone, Medium Grit Stones

Found it cheaper here, should be the same stone:
BladeConnection: Practical and Tactical Knives for Daily Carry
Scott

I have a big chunk of some kind of nagura that works for me in that area. But it takes ages. In fact, technically speaking any stone can set a bevel for you, just depends on how much time you have available. :)

However, if you are a man with things to do and people to see, forget a finite-time natural bevel setter and just do what the rest of us do: buy a decent synthetic or diamond, and check the hones section every 6 months or so for any new info on finite-time natural bevel setters.

James.

For me it is a matter of degree. If it is a razor that needs a lot of work a synthetic, in my case a 1k naniwa, is what I reach for. With a bevel that is in good shape and doesn't have far to go I might, if I feel like it, use a pink coticule with heavy slurry. I've gotten good results in reasonable time with that specific stone. More often than not I'd choose to get it done more quickly and wear down an easily replaceable naniwa 1k as opposed to a natural coticule or whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HNSB

How about a soft Arkansas stone?

I would think the grit would be low enough for bevel setting.

---

Can be quite slow tho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

The only bevelsetting hones I read about are Coticules with slurry.

Am I missing something? Are the various Dalmores used for setting bevels? There must be a Jnat, but that's all, well, entirely too mysterious for me to understand yet.

---

Depends on how you define bevel setting. It can begin at anything from 220 grit upwards depending on the state of the razor. You could certainly do it with naturals but you will usually come up against cost or time. Synthetics are simply the fastest cheapest way to do it. Some of us don't balk at paying $1k for a J-Nat finisher but how many Norton 1k's can you get for $1k :)

I'm not really in a hurry to find a new hone, I'm simply wondering if there are any suitable naturals. The speed doesn't concern me because I genuinely enjoy honing. I like listening to a natural stone.

Still, prior to synthetic hones, how did anyone set a reset a bevel? The Coti with slurry couldn't be the only game in town. Which UK hones were used?

I read a thread some time ago about someone wanting to complete a razor using only UK naturals and was searching for Scottish hones. I'm close to an all-UK progression (DT, TOS, Charnley) and wondered what to look for over the coming months to finish it off. Once I find it, I'd like to finish a couple of old Sheffields with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

For me it is a matter of degree. If it is a razor that needs a lot of work a synthetic, in my case a 1k naniwa, is what I reach for. With a bevel that is in good shape and doesn't have far to go I might, if I feel like it, use a pink coticule with heavy slurry. I've gotten good results in reasonable time with that specific stone. More often than not I'd choose to get it done more quickly and wear down an easily replaceable naniwa 1k as opposed to a natural coticule or whatever.

---

Good Point. I too reach for the Nani 1k or lately, my Norton 1K. I have a nice stripped pink Coti that works well, but once it's gone, it's gone....
I have yet to find one that cuts as good....

Both A_S and Oldengarde are very knowledgeable on obscure naturals from your neck of the woods. If they don't chime in soon shoot them a PM and ask them to take a look at this thread. If anyone knows what was available to use back in the pre-synthetic days they probably would.

You guys should really look at that white amakusa i listed on other page...here's mine:

Attachment 47167

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

You guys should really look at that white amakusa i listed on other page...here's mine:

Attachment 47167

---

How does it compare to say 1k superstone if you have used it?

I would guess there were many places to lay hands of some kind of sandstone. They were probably soft and constantly washing away and the very second someone invented a halfway consistent manufactured stone the places were these others were found were quickly forgotten. It has always been the fine stones that were hardest to create.

That being said I have an aoto that will turn a bur on a plane iron in 12-25 strokes. That's some hefty cutting there. Down side to razor hone mindedness is it takes a lot of downward pressure, otherwise it would never turn a bur.

If you read some of the old timey books where setting the bevel is discussed/ turning a bur; I believe they are describing actually setting the bevel-like there is no bevel at all. So what we are actually doing is re-setting.

It may be worth some exploration if you feel the need to be natural... using some heavy pressure. Of course you don't want that pressing directed on the spine. Sure it will likely produce some deflection at the edge, lowering the angle of the reset. But when you lighten your touch you will be attacking the steel right at the edge. Sorta like double taping strategy.

Not exactly the normal SRP way to go about it. But I do think many good honers will say they do apply more pressure on the foundation hones.

Prior to artificial stones, what people had was patience.

I've reset a bevel ONCE on a Maruka finisher. I ain't ever doing it again.

The white amakusa looks like an option, though. I'd never seen one before. I'll see if I can't get one...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainaman

How does it compare to say 1k superstone if you have used it?

---

I have/use King 800 & 1000 bevel setters and they are much more aggressive and softer. The white amakusa is aggressive, but soooo much smoother and just seems to be "made" for that thin edge of a razor. It really feels a lot like my Shapton 2K. That's the only stones I have in the bevel range that I can give you comparisons with...sorry :shrug:

You have to admit that the price is right...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I have/use King 800 & 1000 bevel setters and they are much more aggressive and softer. The white amakusa is aggressive, but soooo much smoother and just seems to be "made" for that thin edge of a razor. It really feels a lot like my Shapton 2K. That's the only stones I have in the bevel range that I can give you comparisons with...sorry :shrug:

You have to admit that the price is right...

---

yes I am getting one to try, thanks for the links.

I read a thread some time ago about someone wanting to complete a razor using only UK naturals and was searching for Scottish hones. I'm close to an all-UK progression (DT, TOS, Charnley) and wondered what to look for over the coming months to finish it off. Once I find it, I'd like to finish a couple of old Sheffields with them.[/QUOTE]

Cool concept re: all UK natural progression. Sounds like you are developing a nice case of HAD to me. Welcome to the club. I have ordered a King Ice Bear 1000/6000 hone from your side of the pond. From what I gather they last a long time. Good luck in your quest.
MIke

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd just revive this one. Can anyone point me in the direction of any new information on natural bevel setters since this thread was last active?

Thanks.

Try running some searches.

I'm not all seeing, nor am I all knowing, but I don't know of any new information on natural bevel setters since this thread was active.

But with more insight into honing than I had when this was active, I really think you should consider the motives and results. For bevel setting, you want to have very consistent results; if you cannot get a great bevel, you will never have a great shaving edge. Bevel setters are where you do the bulk of your work, and thus where you spend the bulk of your time. This means the stone should behave in a consistent manner over long periods of time (single honing sessions) and should hold up to repeated use (many honing sessions) or else be easily replaceable when worn. These are all areas in which synthetic stones excel. Bevel setters are also the least expensive in each line of hones (as far as I know).

So you should really consider what your motives are for wanting a natural bevel setter before you invest tons of time (and possibly money) into finding one, testing it, learning how to use it, and learning how to make it reliable.

Just my .02.

Thanks. That's good advice. I have considered synthetic stones in the past, but natural stones interest me more for this hobby. I'm not pursuing perfection or even greatness, just a comfortable, relatively close and even shave. I use a Coticule right now, so that tells people I'm willing to make some sacrifices--and I'm considering an Escher at a later date.

I'm curious to hear what others have succeeded at with natural stones in bevel-setting.

Right now I'm playing with an Okudo suita as bevel setter.
It's not as fast as an 1K AlO syntetic but not far from it, with fresh slurry it's very aggressive even on very hard steels and also on stainless.
If you let the slurry break down it can take the edge all the way to your finisher.
Fun - Yes!
Cost effective - No!

Check this site out: Index website Henk en Ge Bos

At the bottom of the webpage is an English version of this man's study of the natural sharpening stones of Europe. I met this guy once: he is a retired carpenter who spends much of his time travelling in a VW van to the all quarries of natural hones known to him.

Round here Bentheimer sandstone was very popular as a sharpening stone for farm equipment. Many farms used to have one in the yard. I guess you might call such a coarse sharpening stone a bevel setter of some sort.


Attachment 140680

My original links still work...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

My original links still work...

---

I'm curious about the Amakusa. You seem to like yours a fair bit. What do you use for raising a slurry and what is your normal routine when you use it? Ever follow it with a Coticule?

Also, do you know others who have bought one? Is yours just a one-in-a-million that works, or do other users experience similar results as you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I'm curious about the Amakusa. You seem to like yours a fair bit. What do you use for raising a slurry and what is your normal routine when you use it? Ever follow it with a Coticule?

Also, do you know others who have bought one? Is yours just a one-in-a-million that works, or do other users experience similar results as you?

---

I use my Amakusa for bevel setting once in a while but only on wedges.
It works but is not well suited for the job, quite soft and that can really mess up your bevel if your not careful.
Depending on your stone and how you raise the slurry it will behave like a 800-2K stone.

Hi SlowRain,

Here's an old thread. http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...n-kc-crew.html
Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I'm curious about the Amakusa. You seem to like yours a fair bit. What do you use for raising a slurry and what is your normal routine when you use it? Ever follow it with a Coticule?

Also, do you know others who have bought one? Is yours just a one-in-a-million that works, or do other users experience similar results as you?

---

To be honest, I sold it around the time I picked up a 1K Naniwa Chosera. I will tell you why. When dealing with natural stones, every one is different...we all know that. As I am sure you also know, your stone may be perfect, then you lap it, and its got an inclusion. I was hung up on naturals for a bit myself & I learned that the synthetics are just more predictable, every time. Did I mention every time? I still have a Hindostan stone that was gifted to me, otherwise I have sold all of my naturals up to BBW "grit".

I have had a lot of stones pass through my grubby paws & what do I use every time I hone razors? If it needs a bevel set, I will use the 1K Naniwa Chosera. My normal progression is Shapton GS 2,4,8,16K followed by a natural finisher which is most of the time Y/G Escher. This works literally every time and on any razor that can take an edge. I am also one that feels like a natural edge will last longer between touch-ups. I can't tell you why, but I have a strong opinion about it....it just works & natural edges seem to last longer IMO.

Thanks, everyone, for all your help. I appreciate it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MODINE

Hi SlowRain,

Here's an old thread. http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...n-kc-crew.html
Mike

---

Yes, thanks MODINE, I saw that one. I think I've seen most Amakusa threads on the major shaving forums. You have no idea how much work I've created for Google the last couple days.

While I'm at it, has anyone here tried one of those Pyrénées stones as a general bevel-setter?