Honing at the 1k level

I've been reading through the Wiki and have found various "benchmarks" for moving past the 1k stone and wanted to get some clarification.

Are you done with the 1k once:
a) the razor shaves arm hair easily when actually touching the skin.
b) The razor "pops" hair when the razor is just above the skin.
c) The razor pass TNT.

I assume if B is true, then A and C also will be. So do you need to get to B before moving on, or is A sufficient to move onto the 4k? (Again, with the mindset that if A is true, C would also be true)

Or are there any other benchmarks I should keep an eye out for?

What I do is make sure I can easily shave arm hair at skin level off the 1k stone. I use the TNT to see how the bevel is developing as you can feel if there are any dull spots on the razors edge.

If a bevel is developing the razor sort of drags on your nail and digs in a bit (if the bevel is dull theres no drag and the edge doesnt dig in) and once I'm getting an even drag the whole way along the edge I keep honing until I can shave arm hair.

If you do the TNT right before moving off the 1k stone you could actually dull the edge slightly, so I tend to avoid that and stick with shaving arm hair at skin level.

I find the razor doesnt start to pop hair floating above the skin until I come off the 3k (or 4k if I'm using Shaptons) and by the time I come off the 8k it will easily pop lots of hair floating above the skin. Then I just move on to the 12k (or 16k with Shaptons) and then a natural finisher, then strop and test shave.

The bevel set is the most important part of honing though, and all the other stones are just refining and polishing that initial edge. So if your bevels not right, you'll end up with a very shiny but dull edge..!

Good luck and keep us posted!

+1 Can't add anything to what Stu wrote

Sweet, so the 1k process should pass 2 tests. Nail test for bevel adjustment, then actually cutting hair at skin level for basic sharpness.

I assume once the bevel is developing properly and has passed the nail test, it will only get sharper so long as you dont screw anything up too bad which leads to the cutting hair.

Then it's just a matter of making sharp, into razor sharp with the 4k and 8k stones. (I use these numbers since that's what I have for honing stones.) 4k being popping hair above skin level, and then 8k+ using HHT/Actual Shaving to test.

That helps a ton. Thanks so much!

yes i do the same thing thing. a nice even drag across the nail. then shaving arm hair at skin level then i move to my coticule for the rest. i also check the edge with 30k loop just to make sure there are ni tiny chips etc.

Great post, Stubear.

This is super helpful. I had blundered on to the fact that the critical moment in my own honing was deciding when to leave the 1K stone. This is very helpful. I can tell if it's getting sharper with my thumb, and the arm-hair test is a good goal for the 1K.

The extensive experience on this site continues to amaze me!

I have a question on the other end of the spectrum.

I've found through reading that the HHT doesn't necessarily tell you anything until you've found a consistant way of reading how you do it, what you do it on and the consistancy to which you do it.

Which is why the shave test is the only "true" method of testing how sharp a razor is.

My problem right now is that my face is pretty beat up from using my current razor. It's gotten bad enough on my neck and face that I couldn't even use an electric shaver on it last night. I'm a bit scared of putting the blade back up to my face until all the bumps and burns go away.

I'd like to take it to an 8k or even a 4k stone to get back a nice edge, but is there some other way of testing it once I'm done at the 8k level? This way I don't continue aggravating the skin that's already in bad shape.

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Originally Posted by thorxes

I have a question on the other end of the spectrum.

I've found through reading that the HHT doesn't necessarily tell you anything until you've found a consistant way of reading how you do it, what you do it on and the consistancy to which you do it.

Which is why the shave test is the only "true" method of testing how sharp a razor is.

My problem right now is that my face is pretty beat up from using my current razor. It's gotten bad enough on my neck and face that I couldn't even use an electric shaver on it last night. I'm a bit scared of putting the blade back up to my face until all the bumps and burns go away.

I'd like to take it to an 8k or even a 4k stone to get back a nice edge, but is there some other way of testing it once I'm done at the 8k level? This way I don't continue aggravating the skin that's already in bad shape.

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STOP !!!!!

Relax, take a step away, and let everything settle down, then start slowly again...

Seriously, this should be fun , not a torture test...

If it hurts just stop ... the more you push it the worse your skin will get

Basically you have to get shaving first then learn what a comfortable edge feels like then take your time learning to hone to achieve that

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Seriously, this should be fun , not a torture test...

If it hurts just stop ... the more you push it the worse your skin will get

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I am stopping. This is exactly what my post is stating. I'd just like a separate way of testing the razor while I let my skin heal and NOT torture myself. I figured giving my neck a few days would be optimal, so I wanted to do something in the meantime. :)

That's why this is the question I asked:

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Originally Posted by thorxes

but is there some other way of testing it once I'm done at the 8k level? This way I don't continue aggravating the skin that's already in bad shape.

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Originally Posted by thorxes

I am stopping. This is exactly what my post is stating. I'd just like a separate way of testing the razor while I let my skin heal and NOT torture myself. I figured giving my neck a few days would be optimal, so I wanted to do something in the meantime. :)

That's why this is the question I asked:

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What Glen is saying, and I agree, is that if your face is raw from shaving you don't have your technique down enough to evaluate a good edge, even when you face is back to 'normal'. Get your razor professionally honed and learn to shave with the straight razor so your face is not raw after the shaves. Do this for s few months before even attempting to learn to hone. If your anxious to learn to hone get an other razor to practice on and just shave your sideburns or cheeks to test the edge until you are satisfied with the results. If you do not know how to shave without nicks, cuts and razor burn you will never be able to gauge a good edge from a not so good edge.

You can either be patient or chase your tail trying to hone a good edge w/o knowing where the problem is, your shaving technique or your honing technique.

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Originally Posted by Joed

Get your razor professionally honed and learn to shave with the straight razor so your face is not raw after the shaves. Do this for s few months before even attempting to learn to hone. If you do not know how to shave without nicks, cuts and razor burn you will never be able to gauge a good edge from a not so good edge.

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I did have the razor sent out to be honed.

I was able to shave quite easily without nicks or cuts. The main problem I was having was razor burn on the neck area, which I've been trying to deal with in a couple other ways (Cold water shaving, olive oil, more intesnse pre-shave prep). The main problem was literally about 10 hairs that just would not shave off on/around my Adam's apple. The weird angle they grew at didn't help either.


Anyways, after about a week of this and some marginal progress the razor started to tug and pull. This is where hitting up a hone came up since a razor shave shouldn't tug or pull.

I can take the razor to a hone right now, I just don't want to test shave with it and was wondering if I dunno...maybe shaving leg hair instead of arm hair would be comparably tough enough to facial hair as a "apples to apples" comparison.

I normally can feel by using the TPT (Thumb Pad Test) when the razor is ready on the 1K. When it is sticky sharp like a pocket knife, it is there. This feeling is very distinct, but you do need to know what you are looking for. When it's there, I can usually follow the rest of my process and the razor will be just where I need it for a comfortable shave.

The shave test is not meant to be painful and there is no reason to destroy your face testing a razor. If it pulls at all when you try to shave one spot, you need to take it back to the hones. If it pulls a lot, I usually go back to the 4K. If just a little, maybe the 8K or 12K. Again, there is no need to continue shaving with a razor that pulls. If the razor just glides over the whisker and does not remove anything, it usually is a sign of over honing and then a trip back to the 12K is normally a good place to start.

As stated previously, there is a learning curve and if you're patient, it will be there for you sooner vs. later.

Have fun,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by tmac123

I've been reading through the Wiki and have found various "benchmarks" for moving past the 1k stone and wanted to get some clarification.

Are you done with the 1k once:
a) the razor shaves arm hair easily when actually touching the skin.
b) The razor "pops" hair when the razor is just above the skin.
c) The razor pass TNT.

I assume if B is true, then A and C also will be. So do you need to get to B before moving on, or is A sufficient to move onto the 4k? (Again, with the mindset that if A is true, C would also be true)

Or are there any other benchmarks I should keep an eye out for?

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The quest for a sharp smooth edge has come a long way since I started reading and posting here on SRP and the quest is never ending. To start wit, the TNT is used to gauge the first level of sharp and there are miles to go when that test is satisfied. I found that the difference between sharp and extra sharp is a minuscule distance that can take anywhere from one lap to a bunch. My scene of feel is not sensitive enough to notice the different levels of sharpness past a certain point using the TPT. For that reason I do not use it to gauge the finished results on the 1k hone. I don't have enough arm hair to test the cut above the skin or to do a lot of at skin level testing so I go after one arm hair at a time. With this test I can notice and gauge numerous levels of sharp. Does it take several tries to cut a hair, does it make any noise, does it send the hair flying? I know I reached the best the 1k can do when the hair cuts w/o a sound and just falls dead on the spot, no popping or/or flying away. In fact, if the hair just falls over when trying to line up the test I know I'm there for sure. The rest of the hones are used to reduce the scratch pattern hence smoothing out the shave. If you move to the next hone before you get to this point the next hone will require even more laps to get there and if you moved to that hone too soon the odds are that you will not have the patients to get there on the finer hones. While the normal hone progression is to double the grit rating for the next hone the nunber of laps is not in that same ratio. One extra lap on a 1k hone does not equal 2 laps on a 4k and so on. Also remember that the edge may not come to the same level of sharpness over it's entire length at the same time. This is where you need to be aware of where the edge is and not produce a wire edge in the areas that come to sharp first and not leave some areas lacking.

Do note that the majority of razors I hone are vintage and come from anywhere on earth except directly from the factory.

Patients is the name of the game here as well as minimal pressure when finishing up on a hone or getting the blade ready for a test.

Good luck

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Originally Posted by Joed

Does it take several tries to cut a hair, does it make any noise, does it send the hair flying? I know I reached the best the 1k can do when the hair cuts w/o a sound and just falls dead on the spot, no popping or/or flying away. In fact, if the hair just falls over when trying to line up the test I know I'm there for sure.

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Originally Posted by Joed

The rest of the hones are used to reduce the scratch pattern hence smoothing out the shave. If you move to the next hone before you get to this point the next hone will require even more laps to get there and if you moved to that hone too soon the odds are that you will not have the patients to get there on the finer hones.
Good luck

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Amazing and Amazing.

This is exactly the level of detail that I was looking for. And something I think a lot of people can use as a guide.

Thanks so much Joed. Now I just have to make sure my hand is steady and smooth when lapping.

When I was honing my grandfathers blade before it broke on me, I kept feeling myself over adjusting in order to keep the spine and edge in full contact with the stone. Especially towards the end of the X stroke.

It seems like focusing and going slower around this point is the key?

Two things.

First, this should probably be in the honing section, or at least a reference to it so people looking for good advice there will find it here.

Second, does anyone use a marker test at the 1k bevel-setting level? I forget where I read about the marker test, but it's something about using a black marker or pen to put a line of ink on each side of the blade and then setting the bevel until . . . the ink is honed away? . . . the pen line is even? I have no idea.

Thanks.

I don't have anything to add, except to say +1 to what JoeD and Lynn have said. Those two gents have loads of know-how, and I've learned a lot from both.

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Originally Posted by JeffE

Two things.

First, this should probably be in the honing section, or at least a reference to it so people looking for good advice there will find it here.

Second, does anyone use a marker test at the 1k bevel-setting level? I forget where I read about the marker test, but it's something about using a black marker or pen to put a line of ink on each side of the blade and then setting the bevel until . . . the ink is honed away? . . . the pen line is even? I have no idea.

Thanks.

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From what I've read and been told you do like you said with the marker.

Then you take it for a few laps on the 1k.

You should then see the bevel forming. Ideally you should see the bevel forming across the entire edge.

But if say only the middle part of the edge is shiny, and the heel and toe are still covered in marker, you're obviously not hitting those area's.

Then I THINK, you use this information to adjust your stroke. So in the above situation you'd use the Rolling X stroke.

And if say only the heel was still showing magic marker, then you'd use a heel leading X stroke.

Can someone confirm? This is just what I've pieced together from reading the Wiki and other posts about it.

I use the marker test on every razor I hone for several reasons. The razors come from who knows where, I've honed a couple of warped razors and didn't know it until the uneven hone wear was highly evident, if I don't want to remove too much metal I try and match the previous bevel as long as it is not a frown. The main reason is to catch a warped blade before honing for the gold. When I forst started honing I came across several warped blades and removed more metal than needed before I noticed. WIth the marker test I know within 10 laps.

Some razors were honed heavy on the tow or heal. Some with a smile. By marking the bevel I can get my strokes to match what was on the blade before I get serious about metal removal.

I use a sharpie because it is water proof. Mark up the bevel and take ~ 10 laps. Check the marked bevel. If the marker is removed for the entire length of the bevel you good to get into heavy metal removal. If just the tow and heel on one side and just the middle of the other sidde has marker removed you have a warped blade and need to use a narrow hone, the side of the hone or just tip the toe up slightly and use the edge of the hone, lightly, until the center of the blade is off the hone, them lay the blade flat. If just the toe and or the heal has marker on it adjust your stroke by rolling x or heal leading and rock the blade slightly during the stroke. The goal is to one the edge evenly w/o over honing the toe or heal and not honing out a warp.

I had a follow up question that still relates to the 1k honing; and since this thread already seems to have a ton of good info, why not add more?

So I bought this semi-new Dovo. I had no idea whether tape was used to previously hone it, so I figured I'd take it back to the 1k and reset the bevel with tape. I also figured I'd do the magic marker test to figure out what stroke to use.

2 things came up.

1- The toe and heel still had marker on them after about 10 strokes, and even after 20 strokes. So I switched to a Rolling X Stroke with the heel leading a bit. (I Think this is what you're supposed to do in that situation.)

However, after a while, the toe and heel still weren't getting honed. Could something be wrong with the blade that I need to fix, or is it most likely just operator error?

2- I noticed that the bevel I was setting laid perfectly on top of the previous bevel; and it looked to be steeper (which means the previous honing was done without tape?) with the center of the blade. But on the sides, the bevel I was putting in was only half of the previous bevel. Fortunately it was on the half with the edge.

So my question is, should I stick with the 1k until the bevel on the sides overlays the previous bevel, or is it ok to have this "double" bevel thing going on at the ends of the blade?

3* - I was also thinking that maybe if I was able to fix (1), (2) would fix itself.

I dunno, but I figured I'd let the experts offer their advice since they've done such an amazing job so far.

Here is a visual of the blade I did in MS Paint.

The blue is the bevel I have set/am setting. The white part is the previous bevel.

So essentially the white part is where you would still see the magic marker.

Also that little wiggle in the middle and towards the heel is really there. I put it there on purpose for accuracy. Maybe it can give you guys more info on the overall blade. The one in the middle leaves a tiny bit of room for a bevel, but the one in back doesn't seem to give any room at all.

I just don't want to try anything too drastic before I hear from the experts. I'd hate to break another blade.

Attachment 48180

From your picture it looks like you're getting a bevel across everything but you're getting a thicker bevel across the center. If that's the case, it's ok to have a bit thicker bevel (as long as it's not a huge difference). It could be because you're putting a bit more pressure in the middle of the blade or because that part of the edge is spending more times on the hone (X pattern can cause this mixed with pressure changes). If you have a bevel across the whole razor edge then I would just progress up.

Another thing to check: when did you last lap (flatten) your hone?

I'm pretty sure the hone is flat, but I'll double check tonight with a grid pattern.

Secondly, the bevel I'm making (the blue part on the picture) doesn't actually go to the very edge or the blade. It stops just before each end. Is this still acceptable?

OH! Also another thing to note; while checking the sharpness I found that the middle part was sharper than the edges. That's why I didn't want to progress any further since I wasn't getting something consistent.

My first instinct was to put more pressure to even out the metal and allow for more contact with the edges, but I could see myself doing more harm than good so I stopped and decided to take a break for a bit.

It could be a difference in pressure or the extent to which the blade was rocked at the toe/heal. Maybe the previous honer used more pressure at the toe/heal than you are, or maybe you are using more pressure in the center than he did. Or maybe the previous honer used a more extreme/pronounced rock at the toe and heal. It could also just be from the factory bevel set; I've seen that happen before. As a general rule, I don't worry about what's above my bevel, I only care about the edge.

If your bevel's are not running all the way to the edge, then your razor will not get any sharper - you'll just get shiny bevels. Think of a plateau instead of a mountain; no matter what the slopes look like, they are different on top. Another way to think of it would be "honing" a razor that was breadknifed without actually resetting the bevel all the way.

I wouldn't use more pressure as a solution; there is always a better way (imo).

BTW, if you are using tape but not getting to the edge, there is no way the previous honer got to the edge without tape (assuming you are honing properly). Using tape increases the angle, which decreases the amount of metal that must be removed at the back of the bevel. If your edge is not set with tape, it would have been farther off without tape.

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Originally Posted by tmac123

Secondly, the bevel I'm making (the blue part on the picture) doesn't actually go to the very edge or the blade. It stops just before each end. Is this still acceptable?

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Ack, based on your reply I see a problem with my verbage. When I said the bevel doesn't go to the very edge I meant the left and right (toe and heel. As you can see in the picture the blue line doesn't make it along the entire length of the blade. I wasn't sure if this was acceptable or how to fix it.

As far as the "middle" (95%) of the blade portion in blue, the bevel does go to the edge.

I hope this makes better sense now.

Maybe using the word "end" rather than "edge" would have been more clear?

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Originally Posted by tmac123

Ack, based on your reply I see a problem with my verbage. When I said the bevel doesn't go to the very edge I meant the left and right (toe and heel. As you can see in the picture the blue line doesn't make it along the entire length of the blade. I wasn't sure if this was acceptable or how to fix it.

As far as the "middle" (95%) of the blade portion in blue, the bevel does go to the edge.

I hope this makes better sense now.

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Oh, that's your call then. If you want to use the toe and heal, you'll need the razor honed there, but if not it doesn't matter. Sometimes I'll skip out on the very heal on my own razors, but I like having the edge all the way to the toe because I find the toe useful for precise work/touchups.

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Originally Posted by LawsonStone

Maybe using the word "end" rather than "edge" would have been more clear?

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Yup, that's what I get for being a newb. Sorry for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Oh, that's your call then. If you want to use the toe and heal, you'll need the razor honed there, but if not it doesn't matter. Sometimes I'll skip out on the very heal on my own razors, but I like having the edge all the way to the toe because I find the toe useful for precise work/touchups.

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I think I'm the same way and would like the toe honed. What do I have to adjust in my stroke to do so? Or would I maybe have to do/fix something with the spine?

Would you suggest me submitting a video of my honing stroke to see if you guys can I.D. something I'm blatently doing wrong?

There are a bunch of things you could try... Personally, I would play with exaggerating the roll. But don't go crazy lifting the scales, or you'll make it worse. Start out really slight and keep the pressure minimal. Do a bunch of strokes before you lift any more, to give the bevel a chance to come in.

Chances are others would approach this differently.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

There are a bunch of things you could try... Personally, I would play with exaggerating the roll. But don't go crazy lifting the scales, or you'll make it worse. Start out really slight and keep the pressure minimal. Do a bunch of strokes before you lift any more, to give the bevel a chance to come in.

Chances are others would approach this differently.

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I have a feeling I'm doing the rolling X stroke wrong....anyone know of any video's that are accurate in displaying how to properly do it?

On another note; being terribly optimistic of course; I was reading earlier and someone said that you can do the "Shave test" on just side burns if needed. My question is: Can you do this on bare skin and still get that nice glide from a good razor? Or do you really need to have some lather or even some olive oil for it?

Lastly, thank you guys all so much for all the feedback. I've only just begun getting into straight's, and am finding myself quite addicted. But I can't tell you how much I've learned in just a short amount of time.

The problem now is that so many questions are coming up and I hope I'm not bogging/bothering you guys. But hopefully there's other newbs that are benefitting from all the traffic on this thread.

Again, thank you!

The roll isn't really easy to see when it's done in person, because it's very small. There is an exaggerated animation of it here: Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

One can do a shave test dry, but I wouldn't recommend it to a new guy. IMO, it only works if you are very confident in your shave technique. Also, like any other test, it needs to be recalibrated for the individual. For me, a dry shave can be comfortable, but it's never the same as with lather.

Answering questions is what we're all here for (aside from when we ask questions or our own :-) ), so ask away.

Well then I'll just stick with using Olive Oil for these quick honing tests off the 8k and a quick strop. That should provide enough lube.

Also, one more; and it's more theoretical than anything.

Based on the picture of how the bevel is formed and how I'm currently honing. If I changed nothing and kept honing, would my blade end up having a "Frown" as I've heard mentioned in various other threads?

Also I checked out that link before and didn't really see the difference between the rolling X and a Regular X. But after your comment of "Lifting the Scales" I think I understand now, and why it is very subtle.

I assume getting the "roll" consistant from stroke to stroke and hone to hone just takes practice?

Oild may change things too. IIRC, it coats the hairs and makes them more difficult to cut. I believe this is why lather is made from soap, which removes the oil, and it is commonly recommended to wash your face before shaving. As for preshave oils - that has always been a mystery to me. The long and the short is, any change from your normal routine could resutlt in a change in how the razor shaves and how the shave feels; this is not inherently bad, but if it happens during a test you need to "adjust" for it (mentally) as you assess your edge. Or maybe I'm just overly worried about variables...

If you keep honing as you are - hard to say, because there is no way to know why you are getting the middle sharp but not the ends. If it's just because the razor needs more work on the ends or because there is a smile there or something like that, then no, you won't get a frown. But if the edge is straight and you are getting those results due to non-flat hone or too much pressure or some other technique issue, then yes, you could end up with a frown.

In the link, it's not really easy to tell, but when parts of the razor change in size (watch the toe and heal), it indicates a change in "distance" to the "camera." So when the toe gets large, it's lifted; when it shirinks, it's down. Maybe that will help.

here is a video series of a rolling x stroke done by Ken RupYouTube - Kenrup Resto Part 1

you can find the whole series on utube I had a problem getting it down and it helped for me

Thanks qball!

So this is just an update for anyone else that may have been having the same problem as me...

I checked the 1k hone and flattened it. As I was flattening it and watching the gridlines it actually seemed that if anything, the middle part of the hone was lower than the sides. I.E the sides pencil marks rubbed off first.

In any case, after flattening the hone I went back to doing laps. I don't know what in the world I could have been doing differently, but I swear the razor got duller. And by a lot! I tried the Rolling X for a few laps but didn't quite feel comfortable with it. So I just stuck with an X stroke with the heel leading.

Maybe the flattening changed the hone enough to where I'm pretty much working with a completely different bevel and need to "start over" on the 1k? I was getting a little frustrated with it last night, so I figured taking a break would help. I'll hit it up again tonight once I've heard back from a few of you guys.

One thing I would caution about in that video - it looks to me like Ken starts heal leading and ends toe leading. Changing the angle of the razor to the hone like that can cause mutiple bevels. I have seen it happen on some old wedges, especially the ones where the spine is narrower at the heal than the toe. You'll see Ken pretty consistant in switching between heal leading and toe leading while doing circles and also while doing X's, but that's too complicated for me.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Oild may change things too. IIRC, it coats the hairs and makes them more difficult to cut. I believe this is why lather is made from soap, which removes the oil, and it is commonly recommended to wash your face before shaving. As for preshave oils - that has always been a mystery to me. The long and the short is, any change from your normal routine could resutlt in a change in how the razor shaves and how the shave feels; this is not inherently bad, but if it happens during a test you need to "adjust" for it (mentally) as you assess your edge. Or maybe I'm just overly worried about variables....

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I think that washing the oil off the beard lets the water in. Once you have hydrated the hair, you use oil to let the blade slide on the skin.