A Newbie's Suggestion for Newbies

I'm definitely just an apprentice honester.

BTW "honester" is a good word for those of us who are starting out--we might never make it to "honemeister" though! I think I'll call a pretty proficient amateur (journeyman, as it were) a "honist."

Anyhow...as a beginner, I've now honed from bevel to strop about 10 razors, and all are shaving well, all a solid B/B+ shave, a couple clearly in the A- range (can you tell I'm a professor?)

I should say I still think the best way to learn is backwards: start with a well honed razor, learn to maintain it, then touch it up, then work down the progression as needed. Still...this is about learning the other direction...

What I realized today about my best honing jobs is that I started on an edge that had not been honed at all. One was a lovely NOS Torrey, still in the paper wrap. Seemed to have a decent bevel, but definitely not shave-ready. The other was a new but unhoned Dovo, still another an old Bismarck that seemed to have very little wear or use.

Anyhow, it occurred to me that with these razors, I could feel more confident in what I was doing because I trusted the quality of the edge and didn't have to do any prior restoration type work. On the others, to a greater or lesser extent, I had to work around the effects of previous honings, use, and decay.

So for newbie honesters, I'd suggest finding a decent razor that hasn't been honed at all. I know sometimes one hears about buying a cheap razor like a Gold Dollar, but even there we don't know we've got a good blade. Strange as it seems, I realize now I'd have learned better and faster starting on an unhoned, new, good quality blade--reduces the number of variables affecting the outcome.

And if the aspiring honester messes up the blade? Well it's easy enough to send it off for honing by a honemeister.

Lawson I think maybe we might be in some agreement with learning to hone :D



http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ning-hone.html

No doubt. I think your posts are what originally got me thinking of "learning it backwards." I knew I'd heard it from someone here.

Developing my shaving technique required I have total confidence in the razor, which means, pro-honed. Once my technique was in the ball-park, I began to be able to spot the range of sharpness and smoothness in razors, realizing the need for touch-ups.

WHen time came to learn to hone a razor, I also realized I needed confidence in what I was honing, ergo a decent razor with no major pathology to overcome. This is a change for me--I used to subscribe to the theory "learn to hone on a junky razor" but now I realize I learned more honing that NOS Torrey than I did in all my efforts to get a Typical Cheapo Razor to hold an edge. The Torrey, like the other great vintage blades, really responds to the stroke and touch of honing in a way that junk razors don't. I learned on the Torrey, a pre-Dovo Bismarck, a Robeson, etc. how a great blade feels under the right stroke on the hone. Others--possibly you!--told me that was the case, but some of us are so hard-headed we just can't accept an idea until we see it for ourselves!

It must be humorous to hear your time-tested learnings repeated as though they are the latest insights!!!!

Not to invalidate you, but...

The first straight-razor I attempted to hone up to shaving ability was a dubl duck "Dwarf". It had some tarnish and a few scratches and it's edge was chipped and dull but it was very salvageable.

So I took it to my factory lapped 220/1000 & 4000/8000 Norton combination stones. Having watched Lynn's DVD and owning a radioshak 60x-100x microscope I patiently honed, watched and learned. Not too long after I had a shaveready dubl duck at 8,000 grit. It set me up with a mistaken sense of ease in honing. Little was I to know that after lapping the 4k norton I would find out my Norton flattening stone wasn't flat (either side) and that I had rubbed off the only good material of the 4k. I removed a lot of material with the flattening stone, balancing out each side's warped surface with the other, to find no good 4k material. It was taken to someone's belt sander, removing even more. Still no good.

Very frustrating. My initial experience in honing razors was not the reality because of defective equipment. Also, since honing up other razors, all of them quite good, I can't remember a razor that took so well to that wonderful smoothness that the dubl duck did. It's a relief to read threads where people remark on their honeability.

I later tried to refresh my first shaveready razor (purchased from a member here) on my spyderco ultra-fine hone. The first time I tried to use it. Silly me I didn't "lap" it with a hard flat surface to knock of its "high points" (wasn't mentioned in any reading material it came with). Put some tiny micro-trenches in it. Only managed to hone the first of my self-honed razors up to the Spyderco two years later after that, when I figured out all my "trash" practice honing on it in February of this year eventually didn't cause any crunches.

So sometimes you get it perfectly right the first time. And then Hell soon follows...

To be sure, lots of different people have different experiences. All of us starting out pick up some impressions that need changing.

I recall when I taught guitar lessons how parents would want to buy a cheap guitar for their kid (my student) until they knew if the kid would be serious. Of course, by purchasing an inferior instrument, they were putting yet another obstacle before the student, who not only had to fight his or her own ignorance and lack of skill, but even when they got it right, the guitar would let them down. Then when they gave up, the parents couldn't even sell the cheap junk guitar they'd bought.

But if they invested in a decent instrument, their child could learn easier and faster, get more enjoyment from playing, and see immediately the worth of correct technique. Even if they gave it up, at least a decent instrument could be resold for a respectable price.

I am of the opinion that honing is like this. I'd rather learn to do it right and initially have it be somewhat "too easy" than to be fighting so much resistance from the razor, the hone, etc. that I couldn't even isolate the problems that arose from my lack of skill.

So of course, "your mileage may vary" is assumed for all advice. But I agree with those who say to start learning to hone at the end of the process, touch-ups and maintenance, working down to sharpening and bevel setting, and I also am convinced the best learning happens when the tools and tasks are of good quality so as to reward correct technique.

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Originally Posted by AxelH

So I took it to my factory lapped 220/1000 & 4000/8000 Norton combination stones. ...Little was I to know that after lapping the 4k norton I would find out my Norton flattening stone wasn't flat (either side) and that I had rubbed off the only good material of the 4k.

I later tried to refresh my first shaveready razor (purchased from a member here) on my spyderco ultra-fine hone. The first time I tried to use it. Silly me I didn't "lap" it with a hard flat surface to knock of its "high points" (wasn't mentioned in any reading material it came with). Put some tiny micro-trenches in it.

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Your experience does not jibe with mine or that of others I have encountered here. The "factory" lap of the Nortons, especially that of the 4k, is considered to be awful in that it is not flat. More critically, the outer surface tends to have coarse bits of grit that need to be lapped away.

Oddly, you trust the factory lap of the Nortons, which I don't, and you don't trust the factory lap of the Spyderco, which I do. The surface of the Spyderco is not supposed to be lapped and is ready to use out of the box.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Your experience does not jibe with mine or that of others I have encountered here. The "factory" lap of the Nortons, especially that of the 4k, is considered to be awful in that it is not flat. More critically, the outer surface tends to have coarse bits of grit that need to be lapped away.

Oddly, you trust the factory lap of the Nortons, which I don't, and you don't trust the factory lap of the Spyderco, which I do. The surface of the Spyderco is not supposed to be lapped and is ready to use out of the box.

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Yet my Norton 4k only performed well (before lapping) for a while, in accordance with what I've learned is decent (by honer's life), until lapping. And that was naively given to the factory lapping, at that!

And I blindly (naively) trusted the Spyderco Ultra-Fine stone, which produced razor-stopping micro-trenches, which is unknown to you... so sad... until I removed the offending micro-peaks to the point it did not... and then I proceeded to finish razors to the point where I shaved off its finish and could hardly tell the difference between its finishing and that of the chromium oxide (15k)... so there you go. And that I stand by.

If needed I shall post more specifically on the topic matter provided by "Utopian".

The Spyderco Fine and UltraFine are made from exactly the same material. The only difference is in the factory lapping. That is why Spyderco specifies that lapping the hone voids any warranty.

If anyone else buys a Spyderco and experiences what AxelH did, just contact the company and swap it for a new one. Any high spots that are causing gouging is definitely a mistake on Spyderco's part and they should make it right. I did not have any trouble with my single Spyderco UF, but I have read of several descriptions of good customer service from them, so don't hesitate in trying to get them to replace it if you have trouble with yours.

LawsonStone,

You make some excellent observations :)

There is much to be said for learning to hone on a good quality blade.

I do wince a bit when we hear of newbies to honing attack a fine vintage razor; these razors are irreplaceable :(

Even using no-name Solingen blades form the 1920s & 30s make me a bit queasy.

That is why I would recommend starting with a good quality, new make razor.

That way if the blade is trashed, it can be easily be replaced, and no fine historic razor has been sent to razor Heaven.

The Dovo Best seems a fine candidate for a 'learning honing razor', and indeed I learnt much from mine when I first started honing.

As it has a slightly warped toe, the teaching level was enhanced :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Yes, learning to hone backwards is pure brilliance. I'm sure it must have come from a very learned, patient, virginian kind of gentleman.

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Originally Posted by AxelH

Not too long after I had a shaveready dubl duck at 8,000 grit. It set me up with a mistaken sense of ease in honing.

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I just had to reply to that, because I had such a similar experience recently. My virgin run on a coticule put such a beautiful edge on this one razor that I hadn't been able to shave with after many laps on DMTs. It gave me that "mistaken sense of ease in honing" you so accurately described. I posted a glowing review in a thread here, and a few senior members were kind enough to point out some of the fallacies in my wonderment about the coticule. I then inexplicably proceeded to get mixed results with the next few razors on the coti.

Recently I threw a Naniwa and a Norton 4/8 into the mix, tried to set aside my frustrations, and I'm really trying to figgure out what kind of progression each individual razor wants, and which stones are best to accomplish that. My edges are noticeably improving, and objectively are probably much better than that initial coti-only edge.

But I know what you mean about getting that dubl duck shave ready--you never forget your first!