Let's talk HHT

I am going to give a few pointers about the HHT from the one side that says "Parlor Trick" to the opposite camp of "HHT 1-5" ...

Please if you are an experienced Honer and use an HHT, add your story of how you developed it into a usable test...

In my personal experience I use a HHT, but not to determine shave readiness, I use it so that I know the edge is keen and ready to be shave tested, Only a shave test determines shave readiness...

Personally I think any HHT before the final stropping is a waste of time, IME it isn't accurate, perhaps you can develop it into an accurate test, myself I think the other sharpness test at the lower levels work better...

This has been repeated so many times it almost hurts my fingers to type it... The HHT is for use by the person that honed the blade, and that has developed an usable HHT, otherwise it is a JOKE!!!!
For a person who just got a professionally honed blade, to type the words HHT and I can't get it to pass, is a waste of typing..

The HHT has to be developed in reverse, if you are going to use it, after you have honed a shave ready edge, and have shave tested it, and absolutely KNOW it shaves... Then, and only then, do you start your journey to an HHT...
Strop the edge like you are going to shave, and then start playing with the HHT, try the hair both directions, try a clean fresh hair, try an old one off the brush, try angles, try no angles, try pulling, try no pulling... once you get it to pop, then try the same edge, same technique, before stropping the edge, and see if it fails... A usable HHT fails at one point, and passes at another...
This testing can take some time, and can be different on each blade, what you are striving for is a hair to pop that gives you information...That is a useful HHT.. BTW your own hair might not work at all, or work to easy, mine is that way, it pops at 1k and is useless as an indicator of anything...
My wifes hair will not pop at all until I am done honing, and have done the final stropping, so hers tells me something... Hers tells me that the edge is keen, it does NOT tell me how that keen edge shaves... Only the shave test tells me that...

I hope that clears some stuff up and helps a bit...

I will add this for all those people that find it necessary to say this over and over, the HHT does not work for everybody, it does not have anything to do with a shaveable edge, it is simply a tool, just like the TNT, TPT, AHT, Only the shave test, works to test shave readiness..

Yes you can have a perfectly good shaving edge, that YOU cannot get to pass an HHT, but I bet I can get it to pass, without doing anything other than stropping that edge...Because I have developed my HHT to work, and you haven't..

Just like everything else involved with honing a razor, consistency is the key to using the HHT correctly...

FWIW I've never used the HHT. I have short, fine hair and find no delight in pulling out chunks of what likely won't work anyway. So there it is. I fiddle with edges until I like the way they shave and then try to rememeber what I did to get it that that way.

The edges generally work better than the memory which, in one respect, ain't all that bad. In other respects :cry:

:beer2:

I don't use the HHT either.

During my honing process, I used to frequently check my razor at each stage. The first way I learned to do this (aside from TNT) was by shaving arm hairs. I'd do it after every hone, looking for the improvement. After my finisher, I'd try to cut arm hairs off the surface of my skin. If it worked, I knew I'd get a good shave. After a while, I found I could cut "hanging arm hairs" off my Naniwa 8k. A while later, I found I could do it off my Naniwa 5k.

Regardless of what tests I do on the edge during my honing process, the only test I really care about is the shave test. My razors are for shaving, not passing hair tests.

i'm another one who doesnt use it either.

I much prefer the shaving arm hair test(s). I make sure I can shave arm hair at skin level off the 1k stone. If I cant do that easily and at all points on the blade, I stay on the 1k until I can. I use the TNT to see how a bevel is developing, and a TNT pass lets me know the bevel is close to being formed on the 1k.

Then I'm just watching the edge through a loupe as I move up the stones to see it becoming more and more polished. I usually do the shaving arm hair at skin level test as I move along just to make sure I havent made any huge error!

Once I get to 8k I should be able to shave arm hair floating about 1mm above the skin. I can feel all the hairs catching on the blade and see them getting cut and collecting on the razor.

Then I move onto my finishing stone, then strop on my daily strop. At this point I usually check the razor on my leg hair about 3-4mm above the skin and the hair should just be cut cleanly and easily. You can hear a hollow ground blade going "pingpingping" as you do this test.

I guess these tests are kinda variations on the HHT, but I prefer them as they are actual shaving tests!

i find this is the best way for me to consistently get good edges on a razor.

It's funny how we always come back to setting a bevel.

At this stage, I know that if the bevel is set correctly and I follow my normal honing process, the razor will usually be a good shaver.

As I reflect back to when I started honing, I never used the HHT. For the most part, I just followed the appropriate pyramid based on what I thought the razor would need for honing and shave tested to see if it worked. Over time I tried shaving hairs on my arms and a variety of tests, but really it always boiled down to how does it shave and from there I developed a sense of when it did not, what stone to go back to.

The most important thing about all testing is that the tester really have knowledge of what the test is and what it means. For me the Thumb Pad Test tells me when a razor is pocket knife sharp at bevel setting and I don't leave the 1K until it feels right. This feeling is something some people know and some need to learn.

There are a couple of problems with testing when it comes to new guys. The first is that they tend to over hone until they really learn a specific test or have a benchmark. Another problem is that tests like the HHT cause a new person without much experience to proclaim a razor not sharp and they are pre-disposed to have a miserable shave, not to mention the need to learn proper technique. As Glen pointed out and I agree, a properly stropped razor is necessary for a decent HHT. We have seen people try it with a razor with oil on it or one that just had the oil wiped off and guess what? Think it will pass? The right hair, the wrong hair, oily hair, thin hair, thick hair.........OK OK OK........

Another problem is the expectation that you can sharpen anything because you have sharpened all your knives in the past. The straight razor is a more delicate animal and honing is a learned art. You need to take your time and learn it correctly and correctly can be very individual. It can take a few weeks to a few months to learn to hone with good results. It can take years to be able to hone everything in sight and in every conceivable condition. Jus as honing is a learned art, testing is a learned art. We are always developing our senses.

There is no magic stone or magic test. There are a variety of tests that can help you along the way but none are really conclusive.

At the end of the day, how the razor shaves will be your best indication of how you've done. When a razor glides over the beard and does not remove any whisker, it normally is over honed or still very dull. When it tugs and depending on how much tug there is, it normally needs some more work. Now to figure out how much work or what hones to go back to???

I hope the HHT debates go on forever as every time we discuss them, we reinforce things that really help people. Some great information in the posts above.

When you hone 1 razor, you don't know what you will know when you've honed 10 or 1 razor 10 times. When you've honed 10 you won't know what you don't know till you've honed 100. When you've honed 100, you don't know what you don't know until you've done a thousand and so on. We all continue to learn.........

WOW!!! Did I write all this..................................:)

Have fun,

Lynn

I rely heavily on the Hanging Hair Test.

If a razor passes my HHT (explained below) it might be shave ready. But my experience tells me if a razor does not pass my test, it won’t give me the shave I want. I’m going to say this again, a razor that fails my HHT will not give me a satisfactory shave.

My HHT is conducted with my wife’s ultra fine wispy barely visible hair cultivated from her hairbrush. I hold the root end and bring the strand down to the edge at the toe, the middle, and the heel. A pass is the fine strand falling away from the edge at all points.

My shave test is a basic single pass north-south shave. A passing grade is a comfortable presentable face. A second pass should be an option not a necessity.

This is asking a lot of an edge but the beauty of the straight razor is that I can have the edge I want.

As an aside, I can’t imagine trying to hone a razor for someone else not knowing what kind of edge they like or how to judge it.

I reamin &c,
LG Roy

I agree with all the above info. I would add that, for me, the HHT is usefull as a base reference point in that I know that a blade will not pass a HHT done by me, with one of my chest hairs when its too dull to bother trying a shave test. In other words, when it passes my HHT, done by me with my chest hair I think its worthwhile to try a shave test, but not before (for me). Shave test is the only test that proves if its shave ready
.

I've tried the HHT on a razor that was freshly honed by Lynn, my hair would just laugh at the razor and stay intact. I've tried the exact same razor with one of my friend's hair, it poped just looking at the edge.

If the HHT works for you and gives you can correlate HHT to shave readiness, more power to you.

For the HHT to work, you need the perfect hair that will ONLY pop when it's time. When do you know you have the perfect hair with those properties ? :shrug: It's a personal thing that can only be used on your razors with your hair. But saying that your razor passes the HHT doesn't mean much to others. Basically, I'm 99.9999% confident that no standardized HHT can be develloped.

Pretty new to honing and i dont usethe hht, i stick to the tnt and shaving my arm hair, the more i do i seem to get a better feel for it, but i think i have only just got on the first run of the ladder.

The HHT algorithm is made up of two separate functions: training and using. They proceed as follows:

Training <-function(hone, razor, hair, face){

while (still alive and shaving with straights){

10 hone(razor);
20 HHT(razor, hair);
30 testshave(razor, face);
40 correlate(testshave, HHT);
50 if (testshave==good) break else goto 10;

}

using <- function(razor, hair, face, training){

if (training == a lot){
use HHT
use shavetest
}
else use shavetest and do training
}


James.

No HHT here either. Lynn taught me to memorize the TPT feel of the blade after each stage of honing.

I use that and a shave test. Sometimes it goes back to the hones - sometimes not.

IMHO - nothing else really matters.

I learned a lot from Glen's posts on how to approach the HHT. I only do it after stropping and I did have to learn the technique to make it work for me. I can get there most of the time but one thing I discovered along the way is that a razor doesn't have to pass HHT to give me a good shave. YMMV. I have gone through periods where I was obsessed with it but since I learned it I'm not as concerned with it now. I use the TPT more than anything in the realm of testing while honing and the shave test, as Lynn points out, is the main thing.

Here's where I'm at:

TNT: Don't use it, don't need it.

Arm (leg) hair at skin level: Will tell me when the bevel is set.

TPT: Double check for the bevel. Sometimes will help me identify a small area of the bevel that's not quite there. Becomes useless (for me) as I approach the final edge. Finished edges often feel like dull bevels to me.

HHT: Check before and after stropping (after finishing). If it's positive on both, I'm in for a great shave. If positive only post-stropping, it still may be outstanding. If negative post-strop, maybe it will shave well, maybe not. BTW, I use a stock of human hair I purchased; even within this sample, there are clearly thinner and thicker hairs. HHT is at least as dependent on the qualities of the hair as on the qualities of the razor edge, IMHO.

"Skimming" arm or leg hair about 1 cm from the skin. Correlates well with the HHT. Used as a double-check on the HHT pre-and post-stropping a finished edge.

Shave test: Within the category of "shaves well" razors, there can be considerable variation, and it takes experience to tell the difference. They may all get you there, but how easily they do it is key. Unconsciously using pressure on a less-than-ideal edge may give you a shave indistinguishable from a perfect edge, except the alum stings a little more, or that one stubborn patch under the outer quarter of your right jawline still has the smallest stubble left. All my current razors shave well; a few shave superlatively well. I'm working on the others:rock:.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pcb01

"Skimming" arm or leg hair about 1 cm from the skin. Correlates well with the HHT. Used as a double-check on the HHT pre-and post-stropping a finished edge.

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+1 on skimming. I call it popping hair. Another thing I've noticed as my shave technique has improved I get a DFS 98% of the time regardless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1 on skimming. I call it popping hair. ....

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I call it "Hairy Poppings"!

Bevels on razors and bright yellow Nakys.
Henkels and Bengalls and no dodgy Pakis.
Bright blue Asagis all tied up with string!
These are a few of my favourite things!

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

It's funny how we always come back to setting a bevel.

At this stage, I know that if the bevel is set correctly and I follow my normal honing process, the razor will usually be a good shaver.

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Yeah man, that's what it's all about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I call it "Hairy Poppings"!

Bevels on razors and bright yellow Nakys.
Henkels and Bengalls and no dodgy Pakis.
Bright blue Asagis all tied up with string!
These are a few of my favourite things!

James.

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James, you got waaay too much time on your hands mate! :roflmao


Mick

I use the arm, or wrist, or knee, or leg test!:D I have found that a true HHT is just to time consuming and not the same as an "on the body" hair.
I have found that, as always is the case, that when the bevel is set and I look at it though a 30X magnifier and like the looks of the edge I will do an above the skin test. I can tell even if it does not cut any hairs when it is sharp because it will start to "catch" the hairs. I will then start my polishing and I may hit the arm hairs at about the 12K point just to make sure that the toe and the heel are even in sharpness. Why the just the heel and toe? I have found that the middle is not usually the problem area. After I am done I now seriously hit the arm hairs and I can tell by the feel as it cuts the hairs just how sharp the razor is. Hair tests do not give an indication of smoothness, just keenness. When I finish the final polishing I will go to the skin and drop 4 or 5 hairs at different points along the blade and if they don't just fall over then I know that I had better take a couple of steps backwards.

Take Care,
Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

In my personal experience I use a HHT, but not to determine shave readiness, I use it so that I know the edge is keen and ready to be shave tested, Only a shave test determines shave readiness...

Personally I think any HHT before the final stropping is a waste of time, IME it isn't accurate, perhaps you can develop it into an accurate test, myself I think the other sharpness test at the lower levels work better...

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Pretty much says it all for me & how I use it. There are variables like user skill etc. but the constants are that good steel optimally honed will simply cut most any hair & do it comfortably at skin level.

+1 on reverse engineering the HHT. If you have a razor of known sharpness it takes the guesswork out of the equation. All you need do then is see how & what hair it will HHT.
I wonder if anyone has measured these uncuttable thin hairs with a Vernier or such ? I know I can HHT a 2.5 thou hair. It probably doesn't matter if you can make the test your own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I call it "Hairy Poppings"!

Bevels on razors and bright yellow Nakys.
Henkels and Bengalls and no dodgy Pakis.
Bright blue Asagis all tied up with string!
These are a few of my favourite things!

James.

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:rock:
Fantastic!


I use the HHT all the time. (And the whole raft of other tests.) I've learned to read what each tells me, to an extent. The hair will often behave in certain ways at certain points. There are a million shades of sharpness between SAH and HHT 5 and the way it cuts can tell a lot. Even the way it doesn't cut tells me something.
I use a consistent sample, washed clean and glued into a knot, but even then there isn't a direct correlation between shave quality and HHT values. There have been a few anomolies, in which edges passed every test well, but shaved harshly. I have found that every blade that fails my standards for HHT results shaves poorly, but not every blade that passes shaves well. My results seem to also hold true for edges done by others.

Another test I find that gives me a bit of insight into what to expect for the actual shave is the sensation on the more sensitive skin of my forearm. A blade that proves to shave harshly will often leave a faint tingling sensation on my arm skin during testing. A smooth shaving edge will leave no sensation behind. I took me a while to put that together though, because I often hone days in advance of shaving so I've started to include those results into my honing journal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dgstr8

I agree with all the above info. I would add that, for me, the HHT is usefull as a base reference point in that I know that a blade will not pass a HHT done by me, with one of my chest hairs when its too dull to bother trying a shave test. In other words, when it passes my HHT, done by me with my chest hair I think its worthwhile to try a shave test, but not before (for me). Shave test is the only test that proves if its shave ready
.

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SliceofLife also mentioned having to use chest hair. Because I wasn't very familiar w/ the prep on a hair, I couldn't get one of GS's fine hone jobs to cut a head hair, yet a single tpt made it clear it was going for my rib cage through my thumb. Off the stone, I don't stop until chest hair falls easily. Then strop. ALOT. The wackers are particularly hard steel, and I'm learning I have to give alot of extra stopping effort when coming off the stones. Head hair wouldn't pass off the stones - ever. 100 passes on canvas & then 160 on bare leather, and it passes at various levels. The more mild tempered blades don't seem to need that much effort.

This, from the noob at 3 mo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

if (training == a lot){
use HHT
use shavetest
}
else use shavetest and do training
}
James.

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That's funny, Jimbo. Thank You!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I wonder if anyone has measured these uncuttable thin hairs with a Vernier or such ? I know I can HHT a 2.5 thou hair. It probably doesn't matter if you can make the test your own.

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Chest hair = .0033"
Head hair = .0018"

variables of measurement apply, but several samples came w/in a few tenths over repeated measurements.

You lucky $)@^(+@$)^ that have the thick head hair :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Chest hair = .0033"
Head hair = .0018"

variables of measurement apply, but several samples came w/in a few tenths over repeated measurements.

You lucky $)@^(+@$)^ that have the thick head hair :)

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That wasn't his head hair :dropjaw:

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinklather

You lucky $)@^(+@$)^ that have the thick head hair :)

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LMAO.. It ain't my hair. My hair is always buzz cut :D

I used a straight for a year before I read about the HHT on this forum and decided to try it.

I hone razors using a standard 1k, 4k, 8k and .5 micron progression. I can get to the HHT after plain linen and leather, but I find it easier on pasted "unpasted" strop. There was a thread awhile back about how tratitionally strops had some kind of treatment with a very fine, mild abrasive compound applied. I tried graphite with good results. After looking around, I found a 50 nanometer allumina (.05 micron) polish. I cleaned the graphite off my strop and applied a few dabs of polish. After stroping, the razor easily passed HHT (5).

As for the test itself, I take chest hair, hold it with the root out, and bring it down to the edge. If the hair does not fall silently in two, I continue stropping. What the test usually tells me is that I'm not getting full edge contact between the blade and the strop towards the tip. I've noticed that if I place the razor flat on the strop and give it a slight rotation to ensure solid contact between the edge and strop, it takes relatively few strokes to make the edge pass teh HHT.

I think no matter what kind of hair, or thickness of hair you use, everyone is still going to have their own unique HHT.

Everyone talks about their own; But really, everyone can have their own HHT because of climate, procedure, hair thickness etc...

I think the point of the thread was to highlight the fact that everyone has to find their own "standard" of using the HHT as a measurement tool.

Although it would be kind of cool if we could somehow SET a standard. By say, using some thin type of rope/line. Then everyone would know they would be using the exact same medium.

In the end though, it seems to be a bit extreme and takes a lot of the unique user skill of honing out of the equation. That's what I like the most about honing. Everyone has their own deviations, everyone gets a great shave, and not everyone in the world can just pick up a stone and razor and get good results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thorxes

Although it would be kind of cool if we could somehow SET a standard. By say, using some thin type of rope/line. Then everyone would know they would be using the exact same medium.

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A standard material would be helpful. A standard face, beard, and neck would also be helpful. I think the face being test-shaved is one of the most important variables regarding interpretation of sharpness tests, along with of course personal shaving styles, prep, etc

I love it: we NOW have THE test. And it is, proper epiphany-like sound effects please, the Standard Face Standard Stubble Standard Preparartion Standard Lather Standard Strop Standard Razor Test.

Standard pronunciation is to place tongue between lips and blow.

:beer2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

A standard material would be helpful. A standard face, beard, and neck would also be helpful. I think the face being test-shaved is one of the most important variables regarding interpretation of sharpness tests, along with of course personal shaving styles, prep, etc

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It all boils down to how is the shave ? If it's good that is all that matters. :)

I like the reverse engineered test. That'll teach you more than anything else.

I used to use my own hairs for HHT, but my hair is VERY fine, especially tat from my head and the demand was more exacting than a good shave required. i soon started using my wife's coarser hairs and was suitably pleased with the results.

These days I don't even bother. A combination of experience, TPT and the feel and sound on the hone let me know if I'm close and that's when i move on to the shave test. I'm grateful for the information that many, many months of HHT performance taught me, but I'm past that now.

HHT re-confirmed for me...

I was messing around last night testing my new Charnley Forest hone on a newly restored Ern ATOR for myself...

See here http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...nch-today.html

Now I happened to have a strand of my wifes baby fine hair so I tested the razor last night right off the hones,, The test failed all along the edge but the shave wasn't bad at all, not perfect but acceptable...

So tonight I stropped the edge in, 15 laps on CeOx and 50/100 Linen/Leather on the Illinois #827 and Pop, pop, pop, 7 times right down the edge my version of the HHT passed...
This is what I was talking about by having a fail/pass system if at all possible, now I will test shave again :)

Well, well, well... This is a timely thread resurrection for me. I am evaluating a new stone, and I had a razor that I was having difficulty getting to pass my HHT. Knowing better, I decided to shave with it with uninspiring results.

Back to the stones, and finally got a much better HHT result. I'm expecting a significantly better shave tonight.