Coticule Considerations

I recently read a post where a member in Canada purchased a Coticule here in the states. That made me curious, since there's a vendor in Canada that sells them.

What are your main considerations when purchasing a Coticule. I know Bart sells them for Ardennes, or at least he used to. He rates each individual stone, and can give detailed information about it, such as it's cutting speed, with and without slurry. Information like this is invaluable.
Especially to the new honer. I would think this would be a no brainer.. However, if you can't get one, then that's a problem..

Coticules are as unique as the person using them. Some are better cutters, while other's are better finishers.

Coticules are probably the hardest hone to master, especially if your new.
If you have one, you really need to stick with it and get to know it. They can impart a very nice edge on your blade, but you really need to put your time in.

So, What are your considerations....?

Is price the deciding factor? Do you take into consdieration shipping charges, and whether or not the stones insured. Will the seller replace it no questions asked if you don't like it...? or if you find a hairline crack..?
Does it come with a slurry?

If it's lost in the mail, Will the seller replace it, if no insurance is purchased?

How important is grade to you, Select vs Standard?

How important is the seller's knowledge of the product, I.E. Like Bart, Can he tell you specifics about the hone itself.

How important is the vein to you. Does it matter if it's La Petite Blance, or Dressante, or La Grise, Nouvelle vein, etc....

There's a lot to think about, and I'm curious as to how folks decide where to buy there stones with so many options available to them....There's probably things I haven't thought of......

Rich

I lucked out with my coticule.

I emailed Steve Dempster to get myself a rectangular shaped bout but unfortunately he didnt have any that shape left, but he said he did have some smaller 6"x2" coticules which were that shape.

I got another email a little while later saying that he actually had some coti/BBW combo's in that size and would I be interested in one of them?

The reply was an immediate yes! :)

Its a great little stone and puts a killer finish on a razor. I'm very happy with it I must say!

I got my CF from eBay and it was being sold by a razor guy so that one was a pretty good bet.

And my J-Nat was originally from O_S (so again a safe buy) and a member here sold it to me via the classifieds.

I've bought all my stones either from razor retailers or from people who used them for razors themselves so they've all been pretty safe buys. I dont know if I'd take a punt on an unknown stone from an unknown seller though, but then thats why I'll probably never be one of those guys who snags an Escher for $50..! :D

Sounds like you're doing market research to sell them:)

I think,for most guys it's just a matter of finding a reliable, knowledgeable vendor known for quality products and who backs up his mdse. Most guys don't know or care squat about what mine or region or vein the stuff comes from. It's a natural product and a rock not a mineral- gem like a sapphire where you can quickly access it's overall value and quality. The product can vary from foot to foot as you mine the stuff. Even if you went to the mine in person with a pickaxe in hand most wouldn't know what they were taking probably.

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Originally Posted by Stubear

I lucked out with my coticule.



And my J-Nat was originally from O_S (so again a safe buy) and a member here sold it to me via the classifieds.

I've bought all my stones either from razor retailers or from people who used them for razors themselves so they've all been pretty safe buys. I dont know if I'd take a punt on an unknown stone from an unknown seller though, but then thats why I'll probably never be one of those guys who snags an Escher for $50..! :D

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I got two J nats from OS, Awesome stones....

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Sounds like you're doing market research to sell them:)

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It does sound that way, but honestly No, I sold them in the past, it was a learning experience for me, but too many headaches...I have some slurries to get rid of, and I'm out....

Rich

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Originally Posted by zib

What are your main considerations when purchasing a Coticule. I know Bart sells them for Ardennes, or at least he used to. He rates each individual stone, and can give detailed information about it, such as it's cutting speed, with and without slurry. Information like this is invaluable

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Especially to the new honer.

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.
I would think this would be a no brainer.. However, if you can't get one, then that's a problem..

Coticules are as unique as the person using them.

Quote:

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Some are better cutters, while other's are better finishers.

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Quote:

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Coticules are probably the hardest hone to master, especially if your new.

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If you have one, you really need to stick with it and get to know it. They can impart a very nice edge on your blade, but you really need to put your time in.
Rich

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At first i should say i understand this is not selling purposes etc.
My question to You Rich is this
When,how and why you got above ideas?
or this is me talking JUST 2 years ago.?

I bought both of my coti's off of eBay that were unidentified in lots (both approx 150-160mm x 35mm). Picked up one for about $15 and the other for $60.

They are both vintage, so I have no idea what vein they came from.

I'm still fairly new to honing, but have figured out that one is a faster cutter than the other when doing the dulicot. Still trying to figure out which one is the better finisher as they both put on an edge that I can comfortably shave off of.

That said, I do like to take my razors to an escher afterward (also purchased on ebay 7.5x1.5" for $125) as I find it puts a killer edge on. I don't use pastes and since I take my razors to the escher after the coti, it doesn't matter which one is the best finisher. I tend to these days use the faster cutting one so I can get to the escher faster.

If I was to purchase another coti, I would probably pay a bit more if I had information on to how it is as a finisher. This information would be worth a bit more for me. I can always use my faster cutting one and then switch to the better finisher. I would like to find one that equals my escher - not that I need it mind you, but I think coti's are the most beautiful natural stone and would like to have more.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

At first i should say i understand this is not selling purposes etc.
My question to You Rich is this
When,how and why you got above ideas?
or this is me talking JUST 2 years ago.?

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I'm just curious as to what peoples main consideration is when buying....
So many vendors out there....

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Originally Posted by Harvitz81

I bought both of my coti's off of eBay that were unidentified in lots (both approx 150-160mm x 35mm). Picked up one for about $15 and the other for $60.

They are both vintage, so I have no idea what vein they came from.

I'm still fairly new to honing, but have figured out that one is a faster cutter than the other when doing the dulicot. Still trying to figure out which one is the better finisher as they both put on an edge that I can comfortably shave off of.

That said, I do like to take my razors to an escher afterward (also purchased on ebay 7.5x1.5" for $125) as I find it puts a killer edge on. I don't use pastes and since I take my razors to the escher after the coti, it doesn't matter which one is the best finisher. I tend to these days use the faster cutting one so I can get to the escher faster.

If I was to purchase another coti, I would probably pay a bit more if I had information on to how it is as a finisher. This information would be worth a bit more for me. I can always use my faster cutting one and then switch to the better finisher. I would like to find one that equals my escher - not that I need it mind you, but I think coti's are the most beautiful natural stone and would like to have more.

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Here's some tips that may help you.

Try scratching the surface of the Coti with your fingernail, If you see nothing, it's very hard, and probably a good finisher...

If you see a deep scratch, it's soft, and probably a better cutter.

In between that, well..it's inbetween. This test makes better sense when you have many to try it on...

Also, Coticules that are pale yellow, very light, or greenish, are usually hard, and good finisher's..

Coti's that tend to be darker, pink, or even striped, or have wood grain look tend to be softer and better cutters..

One of my best cutters is a tiger striped Coti. Of course there are exceptions to the rule...

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Originally Posted by zib

I'm just curious as to what peoples main consideration is when buying....
So many vendors out there....

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First I look at the size and shape of the coticule to determine how much work I will have to put into it to make it useful and also to determine how useful I think it will be once made to be so.

Then I look at the seller and the price at the same time. Several things happen at this point, including surmising the likelihood that I will ever receive the hone even if I pay for it, whether I think I might be able to trade something for it, and whether it's worth even entering into a transaction with the seller depending on where they are located, or claim to be, what type of payments they accept, their name, their reputation, their policies, what they charge for shipping and why, and probably other things that are just common sense. Unless the total price and hassle of obtaining the coticule are significantly favorable against that of another hone that already meets the need I expect the coticule to meet, I am unlikely to purchase it

Other details are insignificant to me. I have found that whenever the hone's history, pedigree, color, previous owners, performance claims, etc is mentioned, the price tends to be a lot higher than if they are not. And these items are subjective at best so why bother

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Originally Posted by zib

I recently read a post where a member in Canada purchased a Coticule here in the states. That made me curious, since there's a vendor in Canada that sells them.

What are your main considerations when purchasing a Coticule. I know Bart sells them for Ardennes, or at least he used to. He rates each individual stone, and can give detailed information about it, such as it's cutting speed, with and without slurry. Information like this is invaluable.
Especially to the new honer. I would think this would be a no brainer.. However, if you can't get one, then that's a problem..

Coticules are as unique as the person using them. Some are better cutters, while other's are better finishers.

Coticules are probably the hardest hone to master, especially if your new.
If you have one, you really need to stick with it and get to know it. They can impart a very nice edge on your blade, but you really need to put your time in.

So, What are your considerations....?

Is price the deciding factor? Do you take into consdieration shipping charges, and whether or not the stones insured. Will the seller replace it no questions asked if you don't like it...? or if you find a hairline crack..?
Does it come with a slurry?

If it's lost in the mail, Will the seller replace it, if no insurance is purchased?

How important is grade to you, Select vs Standard?

How important is the seller's knowledge of the product, I.E. Like Bart, Can he tell you specifics about the hone itself.

How important is the vein to you. Does it matter if it's La Petite Blance, or Dressante, or La Grise, Nouvelle vein, etc....

There's a lot to think about, and I'm curious as to how folks decide where to buy there stones with so many options available to them....There's probably things I haven't thought of......

Rich

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Hi Rich,
I bought 4 over the past several months. One (which is pinkish) was from Michael Poe. it is a great stone. I love this one and huge (8x3, natural combo). The other 3, I got from straightrazordave and the description was excellent + had links to Bart's Vault for each stone. They are:

• La Petite Blanche
• La Grosse Blanche
• La Veinette

To me, it was important that the stone come with accompanying info so as to give me a guideline of what I am looking at...but only a guideline. I still have to learn the stone. Dave was incredibly diligent in sharing such info about each stone and I have made a workbook, cataloging this information about each stone.

3 of my stones are select grade and one is a bout.

Also, unless I purchase insurance, I cannot expect the seller to replace the stones for me...Especially given the fact that these are natural and no two are created equal.

I don't know much about these (yet), I was looking to cover the gamut - from soft to hard. I think La Veinette is a relatively hard one and the others, as you say, somewhere in between and soft.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

Here's some tips that may help you.

Try scratching the surface of the Coti with your fingernail, If you see nothing, it's very hard, and probably a good finisher...

If you see a deep scratch, it's soft, and probably a better cutter.

In between that, well..it's inbetween. This test makes better sense when you have many to try it on...

Also, Coticules that are pale yellow, very light, or greenish, are usually hard, and good cutters...

Coti's that tend to be darker, pink, or even striped, or have wood grain look tend to be softer and better cutters..

One of my best cutters is a tiger striped Coti. Of course there are exceptions to the rule...

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Thanks for the tips! I'll have to try scratching my two, but of course I want more.

I will say that my faster cutting one is definitely on the pinkish hue color, while my other one is more pale yellow.

I would really like to get a 7 day set so I try try my finishers on each on different blades so that I can rule out the steel the razor being made and eliminate just one more factor in how the edges are.

I haven't tried synthetics, but I'm very surprised at how fast I can get my razor after bevel setting to finishing using the dulicot method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

Also, Coticules that are pale yellow, very light, or greenish, are usually hard, and good cutters...

Coti's that tend to be darker ... tend to be softer and better cutters..

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I have found the opposite to be true. My finest one is a rather darkish Yellow, I recall chatting with Glen once, and he said the same.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I have found the opposite to be true. My finest one is a rather darkish Yellow, I recall chatting with Glen once, and he said the same.

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I screwed that quote up, and fixed it...The pale yellow and greenish Coti IME are hard, and better finisher's....not better cutters...

The pinkinsh, or darker, even Tiger striped are usually better cutters...

My Bad.....

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Originally Posted by zib

I'm just curious as to what peoples main consideration is when buying....
So many vendors out there....

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I made it easy and just got one from you. I have no clue :shrug: what to do with it yet, but I'll figure it out. :D

I think the biggest consideration is that a stone is just a stone...

A little story here,


I got back into straight razors in 2007 I still had my Super White Arkansas that had served me well for over 20 years... As so many have said "I didn't know any better I got close comfortable shaves"
After reading a ton on here from Lynn, and talking with Howard I bought a 4k/8k Norton and learned how to hone, not just re-fresh...
When I started restoring razors I added the 220-1k Norton...
My next stone was a Shapton Sweet 16 followed quickly by a steal at the antique store a Vintage still with the stamps 6x2 Extra-Extra Very fine pale yellow Coticule/BBW $20 :tu

Those went from June of 2007 to July of 2008 when I ordered the Shapton Bottom to Top set...

During the next year saw the addition of 4 Ch12k's that I worked with and narrowed down to only 1...Learned that, "Yes Natural stones are just that, naturally different"...

The following August I added the entire Naniwa line...

Throughout 2009 and 2010 I have added many new stones to expand my own knowledge base...

Another Coticule, a beautiful 8x3 with very slight grain marks
A 8x3 Thuringan
A Nakayama Midori
A Blue Green Escher..
A full set of 1.5x8 Nortons
DMT's
King's


I got to mess with many more at the various meets...in fact I have been honing quite a few this past few weeks on the Henckles 220-1-3-8 system (Naniwa SS) that Jeffus sent home with me from Spokane...

What has using all these hones on literally thousands of razors taught me????

That they are all just stones and hones, and the real magic is in using them, and learning to use them...

When you hear people profess all about one single hone, and the virtues of that hone, and how it is superior to all other hones, you can almost bet that one of two things are going on...

1. They are getting ready to sell it :D
2. They haven't tried all that many hones, on all that many razors.. :(

So back to this thread, the biggest consideration is that, no matter what it is, or where you get it, or how much you pay for it it is still just a stone and that you have to invest the time in sweat, to make it great, as it is just a stone, and cannot bestow some magical honing ability upon you when you unwrap it :) :)

Now go hone some razors...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think the biggest consideration is that a stone is just a stone...

A little story here,


I got back into straight razors in 2007 I still had my Super White Arkansas that had served me well for over 20 years... As so many have said "I didn't know any better I got close comfortable shaves"
After reading a ton on here from Lynn, and talking with Howard I bought a 4k/8k Norton and learned how to hone, not just re-fresh...
When I started restoring razors I added the 220-1k Norton...
My next stone was a Shapton Sweet 16 followed quickly by a steal at the antique store a Vintage still with the stamps 6x2 Extra-Extra Very fine pale yellow Coticule/BBW $20 :tu

Those went from June of 2007 to July of 2008 when I ordered the Shapton Bottom to Top set...

During the next year saw the addition of 4 Ch12k's that I worked with and narrowed down to only 1...Learned that, "Yes Natural stones are just that, naturally different"...

The following August I added the entire Naniwa line...

Throughout 2009 and 2010 I have added many new stones to expand my own knowledge base...

Another Coticule, a beautiful 8x3 with very slight grain marks
A 8x3 Thuringan
A Nakayama Midori
A Blue Green Escher..
A full set of 1.5x8 Nortons
DMT's
King's


I got to mess with many more at the various meets...in fact I have been honing quite a few this past few weeks on the Henckles 220-1-3-8 system (Naniwa SS) that Jeffus sent home with me from Spokane...

What has using all these hones on literally thousands of razors taught me????

That they are all just stones and hones, and the real magic is in using them, and learning to use them...

When you hear people profess all about one single hone, and the virtues of that hone, and how it is superior to all other hones, you can almost bet that one of two things are going on...

1. They are getting ready to sell it :D
2. They haven't tried all that many hones, on all that many razors.. :(

So back to this thread, the biggest consideration is that, no matter what it is, or where you get it, or how much you pay for it it is still just a stone and that you have to invest the time in sweat, to make it great, as it is just a stone, and cannot bestow some magical honing ability upon you when you unwrap it :) :)

Now go hone some razors...

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:idea: After reading all that, I need to get "STONED."

Personally, I think you guys all have rocks in your head.;)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

So back to this thread, the biggest consideration is that, no matter what it is, or where you get it, or how much you pay for it it is still just a stone and that you have to invest the time in sweat, to make it great, as it is just a stone, and cannot bestow some magical honing ability upon you when you unwrap it :) :)

Now go hone some razors...

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+1. IOW, it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian. :D

LMAO Jimmy I almost put your line in there, but I figured I should leave it for you to say :tu

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Originally Posted by Mvcrash

:idea: After reading all that, I need to get "STONED."

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I second that!!