The light strokes..

That's where my trouble is at the moment.

I believe I'm getting a good bevel, but once I start on the light strokes things are changing on me. I will see (through my little USB microscope) a nice flat bevel with uniform scratch marks when I start on my light strokes, and after a few strokes I'll see some polishing going on, but as I continue with my light strokes I'll see the polished area move to the back of the bevel and the actual edge will lose its crisp appearance and will obviously not be touching the surface of the hone.

Am I seeing a wire edge here? If so, is this just to be expected if one takes more than four or five passes with no more pressure than the weight of the razor?

Thank you for any help you can offer.

n

Quote:

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Originally Posted by name

That's where my trouble is at the moment.

I'll see the polished area move to the back of the bevel and the actual edge will lose its crisp appearance and will obviously not be touching the surface of the hone.


n

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This is tough to understand . would you please clear this a little.
while you hone you don't have to worry about the bevel scratches etc.
look to the edge of he blade.

Are you taping the spine? What you describe would perfectly match that effect.

I'm with Ron here. If you're taping your spine this is what will happen if you dont replace the tape regularly throughout the honing process.

The tape obviously wears much faster than the metal of the spine so you'll need to replace the tape often as you hone.

If a razor has an Ok edge when I get it then all it'll usually take is 40 circles and 20 X strokes on the 1k hone to get the bevel properly set. That only needs one lot of tape, but if I have to do more work and repeat that set several times then I'll replace the tape a couple of times on that one stone as the tape wears down.

Then I replace the tape before I move on to each new stone as well.

When I've needed to do edge repair on the 325 DMT I end up replacing the tape all the time as the stone is so aggressive!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by name

Am I seeing a wire edge here? If so, is this just to be expected if one takes more than four or five passes with no more pressure than the weight of the razor?


n

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I believe this is a wire you are seeing which seems similar to my experience as you describe it. You can tell straight away when you shave which is typically what I do. I find I'm darn close to where I want to be so go back to maybe a 1:3, 1:5 progressions on the 4k/8k Norton depending on steel of blade. Again I'll test shave and decide what next if anything is required.
Just lately I've been using the Naniwa 5K instead on the Norton 4K for certain steels, it seems less aggressive to me.:shrug:
In my experience over honing is more typical than what I see reported on these threads.
I am open to suggestion if anyone believes this not to be the case.

Thank you all kindly for the responses. I honed on the razor in question some more last night to try to get some pictures of what I was talking about but, strangely, things went quite well instead.

Here's a picture that I had saved earlier. See how the polish on the bevel doesn't extend all the way to the edge? And it would get worse as I persisted in light passes over the stone. I suppose I could have taped it, but that seemed like treating the symptom instead of the cause.

Micropic was taken at what the microscope manufacturer claims to be 200X. Microscope is the Red Ant, from eBay, about the cheapest one and it seems to work well. Only a 1.3m image though.

Again, thank you all for donating your time to help me with my honing, I really appreciate it.

n

Could you clarify what the photo shows? I see four regions. The area below the edge, the shiny edge, a region above it, and another region above that. If the region that is the second from the top is the bevel, then I don't think you're at 200x. I'm also confused because there are scratches that are continuous from the top region to the second to the top region. That would imply the second from the top region is not the whole bevel. Is the top region part of the bevel or is it the belly of the blade above the bevel?
:thinking:

Now i understand what you are asking. Sorry.
This is angle issue.
Go head take tape off and hone the blade on 1k to set true bevel.(THIS WILL remove some spine but that is fine) then move on your progressing.
gl.
you should be fine.

I use a stereo microscope a lot to check the edge on my razors. That pic is around 25x - 45x. NO where near 200x. Hope that info helps. I don't have enough experience to weigh in on the problem; but IMHO the final (second from the spine) edge is not very "crisp". I know some people like to put a second edge on a blade but I don't think that is what you were intending to do.

A USB microscope typically doesn't achieve the claimed high power asserted. More likely it is in the 20x to 30x range.

Is there any chance that you are pressing harder than you think you are when you hone? A hollow ground blade will flex under pressure, so where you are abrading will move on the edge, depending on the pressure.

If you are inconsistent with pressure in honing, you will observe the variable performance you describe.

I think it would be best to concentrate on using no pressure at all in your "light" strokes: this will maintain the finest edge possible.

"That pic is around 25x - 45x. NO where near 200x" :-D Must be metric magnification.. I wonder what the conversion is.

"Is there any chance that you are pressing harder than you think you are when you hone? A hollow ground blade will flex under pressure, so where you are abrading will move on the edge, depending on the pressure."

I was thinking about that, I can see where one might put so much pressure on the edge that it bends and the abrasive action takes place behind the very edge, but I *think* this is not happening here. It seems like I'd have to use more pressure when honing than I used setting the bevel for that to occur, whereas if I used excessive pressure on the bevel and then a more reasonable pressure on the honing I'd end up with a double bevel.

Here's another pic- I seem to have gotten a fairly decent polish, although I can see I need to spend more time on my pre polish. That darn bright line right down the edge drives me nuts. Color is funny because I caught a reflection of my finger to try to help bring out the bevel. After stropping, I notice that I see much less of that line down the edge, but I also see that my strop must have some sort of coarse grit on it because my polish is worse D-:

Again, thanks for all the assistance.

n

can you show full picture of the blade. Are you using tape ?

The second photo helps me to understand. I do agree that is not 200X magnification.

Your bevel is not fully set. I know this to be the case because you have scratches that are continuous from the bevel, over the shoulder of the bevel, and into the belly of the blade. You have not honed enough yet to create a crisp shoulder on the bevel nor have have you honed enough for the bevel to reach all the way to the edge. Spend more time on the 1k.

Does "That darn bright line right down the edge" show up on both sides? Maybe a clue to what is happening. It appears that some metal is "sharper/less thick" then the main edge you have on the blade. That's what appears as the "bright line right down the edge." Is is possible you are very slightly rounding the edge, thus changing the edge angle at the end? In any event, I agree with Utopian that the edge is not down to the end of the blade for whatever reason. Again, the magnification is in the 25x to 45x depending on the width of the edge.

There are some tricks that can help untangle what you are seeing.
Some of the tricks are not ideal for honing but do let you see
what is going on.

The first trick is to change the angle of the honing strokes.
You want the scratches to cross the scratches from the
previous hone. Shortly after switching hones you will see
see a cross pattern develop that will vanish as you get down and
remove the previous hone scratches.

Another trick is to modify the hone stroke and not always flip the blade.
i.e. run the razor back and forth ten to 15 times then flip the
blade and the same number of modified strokes. Then
do a count down followed by ten standard strokes.

Another trick is circles. Use the circles on the ends of the hone
to even wear on the hone. Circles do not have the same systematic
scratch pattern and can let you feel and see when the previous grit scratches
are replaced.

Circles and the back/forth strokes have an advantage in they are done
with one grip of the razor and can thus be more consistent, and numerous.
They also tend to minimize the development of a burr even remove a burr.

Strictly the previous scratches only need to be reduced only to the point that
what is left are no deeper than scratches from the current hone.

One cause of a brightening of the edge can be slurry. Grains of grit in
a slurry rolling on the surface will impact the edge and in some cases
result in what might be a micro bevel (sometimes a very good thing).

Another trick is to strop the edge 10 canvas & ten leather... This will
change the shape of a burr.

Lastly work to make a burr so you can see what one looks like.
Try ten to twenty honing strokes all on one side....

Tom, Thanks so much for the information. I will print it out and save if for future reference. I also think it is a good idea to get an inexpensive but shaveable razor to learn to hone one's honing skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

There are some tricks that can help untangle what you are seeing.
Some of the tricks are not ideal for honing but do let you see
what is going on.

The first trick is to change the angle of the honing strokes.
You want the scratches to cross the scratches from the
previous hone. Shortly after switching hones you will see
see a cross pattern develop that will vanish as you get down and
remove the previous hone scratches.

Another trick is to modify the hone stroke and not always flip the blade.
i.e. run the razor back and forth ten to 15 times then flip the
blade and the same number of modified strokes. Then
do a count down followed by ten standard strokes.

Another trick is circles. Use the circles on the ends of the hone
to even wear on the hone. Circles do not have the same systematic
scratch pattern and can let you feel and see when the previous grit scratches
are replaced.

Circles and the back/forth strokes have an advantage in they are done
with one grip of the razor and can thus be more consistent, and numerous.
They also tend to minimize the development of a burr even remove a burr.

Strictly the previous scratches only need to be reduced only to the point that
what is left are no deeper than scratches from the current hone.

One cause of a brightening of the edge can be slurry. Grains of grit in
a slurry rolling on the surface will impact the edge and in some cases
result in what might be a micro bevel (sometimes a very good thing).

Another trick is to strop the edge 10 canvas & ten leather... This will
change the shape of a burr.

Lastly work to make a burr so you can see what one looks like.
Try ten to twenty honing strokes all on one side....

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This is one of the more interesting posts I have read in regard to honing. I must agree with, mostly, what you have stated, although I believe what you have said needs to be directed to more experienced honers.

Consider this some what of a compliment,......mostly! (LOL)

Steve

Magic marker. Rocks. Thumb. Water. Occasional paper towel. I can't imagine that a 19th century barber spent too much time peering into a microscope. Heck, he didn't have the magic marker and paper towels.

I know, I'm just a crabby old man, but it might be time to put the microscope away for a while.

You don't necessarily have to buy junk razors for honing practice, just a couple that you won't feel too bad about if the bevel starts creeping around on you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stimpy52

Magic marker. Rocks. Thumb. Water. Occasional paper towel. I can't imagine that a 19th century barber spent too much time peering into a microscope. Heck, he didn't have the magic marker and paper towels.

I know, I'm just a crabby old man, but it might be time to put the microscope away for a while.

You don't necessarily have to buy junk razors for honing practice, just a couple that you won't feel too bad about if the bevel starts creeping around on you.

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I can't disagree with you but keep in mind 60 years ago every barber knew how to shave customers with a str8 and could and would teach others how to do it. When your learning essentially by yourself with the help of great places like this site, a microscope can help keep you on track. BTW, I would pay to take a class on razor honing and restoration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frank47

I can't disagree with you but keep in mind 60 years ago every barber knew how to shave customers with a str8 and could and would teach others how to do it. When your learning essentially by yourself with the help of great places like this site, a microscope can help keep you on track. BTW, I would pay to take a class on razor honing and restoration.

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I probably shouldn't post when I'm tired and cranky, things just don't come out right, and sometimes I end up raising someone's hackles. My apologies.

On a brighter note -- you're about 4 and 1/2 hours from Williamson, NY, about 4 hours from Rochester, NY -- There are guys here that could put you on the right track. Not me, you understand, I'm an amateur, but I could put you in touch with some other members who always seem willing to give real-world, hands-on help. Think about it. It's really fun to meet and learn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stimpy52

I probably shouldn't post when I'm tired and cranky, things just don't come out right, and sometimes I end up raising someone's hackles. My apologies.

On a brighter note -- you're about 4 and 1/2 hours from Williamson, NY, about 4 hours from Rochester, NY -- There are guys here that could put you on the right track. Not me, you understand, I'm an amateur, but I could put you in touch with some other members who always seem willing to give real-world, hands-on help. Think about it. It's really fun to meet and learn.

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Thanks for the reply and I might take you up on your offer. BTW, I didn't take anything you said the wrong way. You are correct that everyone in the day did not need a microscope. All they needed was to go down the street and find someone who could give them a hand. Even today you don't really need one for honing. I bought mine to look at insects and just decided to look at a few razor edges along the way. Not nearly as interesting as spiders and dragon flies.

Wow, Tom, nice post- that ought to be a sticky.

I think I'm getting it a little better now. I wonder about the slurry, I think I need to dig up that "Art of the Slurry" thread again, I think I'm thinning my slurry too fast or not fast enough or.. something.

My stone wasn't perfectly flat, and probably still isn't, but I seem to be getting better results since lapping it again.

It's probably all a case of typical beginner problems being addressed by changing way too many variables at once, but I think I'm getting better at it all. I've been kind of sick, so I gotta try to be busy to make up for it, I haven't had a lot of time to put all the advice I've gotten to good use yet. Here's a pic of what I managed to do tonight, at least I'm getting out to the edge. The vertical white streak in the middle is fuzz from a towel. Not an ideal edge by any means but at least I'm getting on the edge now instead of polishing the back of the darn bevel.

Thanks again all, and kindest regards,

n

Congrats! It looks, microscopically speaking :), a whole lot better. How does it shave incomparison to before?

Yea, there ya go.