Help Touching Up

Hello all,

I'm having difficulties touching up my razors. I have two that I've attempted to touch up. When I noticed my shave quality diminish (after about 2 months), I tried to use my CH12k to get the edge back to shave ready. After 30-50 laps, I strop and it seems the same or maybe even worse than before.

I'm doing x strokes with very light pressure. Could I be going too light? Does anybody have any suggestions?

I know it's hard to offer help with such a vague description, but any help would be appreciated.

My first instinct is to blame the stone, but I know it's just me getting frustrated with the learning curve. It's very frustrating because I love shaving with a straight. But if I can't maintain my own edges, it doesn't seem to make sense in the long run.

Other info that might be helpful.

I've lapped the hone probably 3 times, going from 320 grit sandpaper to 400 to 600 each time. 600 or 800 is the finest they carry in my nearest hardware store.

Both razors are Dovo Best Quality, a 5/8 and a 6/8, made shave ready by SRD.

Thanks again,

Ken

You might need to find out whether it was honed with tape on the spine originally. There's a video about it here. I think #7 or 8. Essentially, there could be a slightly different angle that the blade was originally honed at. This would keep the razor's edge from meeting with the 12K.

Hi Kent,

It sounds like the often recommended check of contact with the edge is needed. 'felt tipped marker, or such, paint the edge of the blade. Then after 2-3 strokes on the stone - look at the edge under magnification to see if the stroke is actually making contact with the very edge. If not, it could be several reasons, but it's the first critical question to answer.

I use a c12k also, and get excellent results - especially since trying some slurry techniques. That doesn't mean all c12ks are created equal. They're natural stones and vary ALOT. One member went through 4 before finding one that satisfied. Check the threads on the c12k.

Another area to consider is that after riding the stones, more stropping, usually beginning on linen or canvas is often important and under-rated. Blades that won't lop hair off the stone often come around with alot of stropping. I've had them repeatedly not come up to standard after 50 canvas, 100 leather. A few successive repeats of going back to canvas, then back to leather, and they lop hair & shave well.

Let us know what you find with the magic marker test.

The clue here is after honing it is worse than before. That would seem to indicate something is amiss in your honing technique. Without seeing how you hone the only thing we can do is repeat the usual things like the guys recommended to you. Light pressure, consistent strokes, make sure the edge is getting equal contact and pressure throughout the stroke, proper x stroke. Also check you bevel and edge for chips and wear patterns. use a magnifier.

Thanks for you help! I forgot about the marker test. I don't have a loupe or microscope, but I think I have a magnifying glass somewhere, I'll see what I can see with that. If it isn't powerful enough (or I can't see the edge in enough detail), should I not do the marker test? I'll also try a lot of stropping to see if that gets me anywhere.

I was re-reading some of the threads about the ch12k and some of them mentioned a noticeable suction when honing. I felt that with one razor, but not so much with the other, not sure what that means, maybe not as good contact with the edge.

As for tape on the spine, I emailed SRD about my first razor. Lynn responded saying that he did not use tape. I assumed (perhaps foolishly) that he didn't on my newer razor either.

Thanks again for helping a newb like me!

Ken

I am still relatively new to honing, and I am completely ignorant when it comes to the C12k stones, but do these stones have to be lapped prior to use? If so, this might be an issue as you said the edge seemed to get worse after trying to touch it up.

Bones, 'dang good question.

Ken, can you confirm you've lapped that brick? Unchamferred edges would be enough to destroy an edge.

(PS - Bones - messing w/ slurry some w/ the c12k I've gotten some of the feedback to return on the Stosser Wedge. It's sure nice to have it (mostly) back.)

Yes I've lapped it 3 or 4 times, each time drawing a grid with pen, then lapping on 320, 400, then 600 or 800. Grid is quickly removed (couple minutes). I chamfered the edges and corners, but I'm not sure I did enough. I just rounded them off, I didn't remove a lot of the stone. Maybe I'll re-lap just in case and take more off the edges. I didn't get a chance to do anything last night because I was too tired when my kids were finally asleep, but I should be able to give it another go tomorrow. I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks,

Ken

Just off the wall:

. . . Maybe Lynn uses something finer than a 12K finishing stone? Maybe a coticule, or a pasted strop? If so, you'll need to duplicate his tools, in order to match his edge. [You'd need to duplicate his skill, too -- but that's a different issue.<g>]

. . . Without _seeing_ your edge under magnification as you work on it, it's hard to you to know what you're actually doing. I suggest either a microscope (which i don't have) or a _good_ 10x jeweller's loupe (which I have, and find invaluable).

Charles
Charles

After 2 months of use, I'd probably have gone to the 4k/8k, then a 12k, but that's me. I think you get a much better end result...And if possible, I'd go beyond the 12k...I don't think it's your honing...

IME, The C12k is not always enough to bring back a dull edge, there's lot's of variables, How you shave, how you strop, your water, blade care, etc...

Forget the tape....Also, there are a lot of variences between Chinese 12ks...It's a very fine stone, and if your blade is dull, it might not be enough to bring it back, like I said. BTW, I hope your using a slurry..

If you send it off to Lynn, I'd almost guarantee that's what he'll use, a 4/8....
If your going to stick with this, you'll need hones like that anyway, Look up Lynn's honing pyramid, or minimal strokes, 10-20 on each...Then hit the 12k for a bit....

You need more than the 12k...

Loupes are great when your setting bevels. If your new to this, the microscope will only confuse you more....You should be able to see any nicks, chips, etc in the bevel with your magnifying glass...Good Luck...

Again, thanks for all your advice! I worked a little on it yesterday, but I didn't have a marker with a fine tip, so I didn't do the marker test. But, watching more closely, I noticed that on the pull stroke, the razor has a ripple of water (and runs up the blade) at the toe, but not at the heel, so I think it is a contact issue in addition to my newbie honer-don't-know-what-I'm-doing issue. My 6/8 seemed to have much better contact, with a ripple in front of most of the blade (not the very tip or the very heel).

I also tried a lot of stropping. Maybe 3 times my normal. That seemed to help a lot, but still not there. I shaved from my sideburn to my jaw and a little on my neck, and it pulled just a little bit and left some stubble.


So, have I gone beyond touching up perhaps? The razor had just started to give sub-par results, perhaps I let it go a little longer, thinking it was my technique as I'm still a newb.

I don't have a 4/8K. I thought the 12K would be good for awhile. So this is how HAD starts.... It's very logical, I can spend $30-$40 dollars to send 2 razors out, then wait a few weeks. OR, spend just twice that and be honing by next week....hmmmmm.

Thanks again for the addition viewpoints.

Ken

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

. . . Maybe Lynn uses something finer than a 12K finishing stone? Maybe a coticule, or a pasted strop? If so, you'll need to duplicate his tools, in order to match his edge. [You'd need to duplicate his skill, too -- but that's a different issue.<g>]

. . . Without _seeing_ your edge under magnification as you work on it, it's hard to you to know what you're actually doing. I suggest either a microscope (which i don't have) or a _good_ 10x jeweller's loupe (which I have, and find invaluable).

---

You neither need to match his edge nor his tools. You can do a touch up with any decent finishing hone, but of course the character of the new edge will be that of the new hone, not Lynn's

At the touch up stage, I don't think there is a lot of need for magnification, and I say that while being a huge fan of my stereomicroscope. You do a touch up when you notice a diminishment of the quality of the shave. You assess your touch up by the improvement in the shave.

Ken, I know in my experience, and YMMV, that I've hit my head against the table a few times trying to bring back a dull blade on a 12k when I started doing this.....When your new, There's just too many variables..One thing experience teaches us, is to know when to move on. Sometimes, taking a step back, doing 10 swipes on 4k, and maybe 20 on the 8k, removes just enough steel for the 12k to do it's job properly and quicker...

You do want to have even constant pressure from the blade to the stone. You did say with one razor, you felt it sucking...That's good. sounds like your getting it....Be patient, use smooth fluid strokes, and not too much pressure...

P.S. Did SRD give you one free honing with your razors...? You could always send them, and get Lynn's assesment to boot....

P.S.S. I'm not a fan of Microscopes when it comes to honing, I think they're overkill IMHO...A loupe is more than adequate, people have been doing this for hundreds of years without them...I don't need to see my edge at 200x or even 60x to know if it's sharp or if I can move onto the next hone...but that's me...I guess it's cool to see what it looks like...Again, YMMV....

Yes, I still have one free honing, but wanted to try it myself first. I'll try my 6/8 again, that was the one with the best contact to see if I can improve it. Then, I'll send either one or both to SRD for honing.

In the future, will my CH12k be able to bring the edge back if I touch up my razor as soon as I notice my shave quality diminish? (I suspect I waited too long because I thought it was my technique, not the razor)

Thanks for your input! I truly appreciate it.

Ken

I've had good luck touching up an edge with a Swaty, which IIRC, is about 10K.

I'm at the OP's stage in honing, or have just passed it recently. I had a few razors that I've been using over the last couple of months that finally lost their super edge they came with. Found with super light and little strokes (with probably bad technique) and a normal amount of stropping didn't fully bring the edge back. Neither did only light strokes on the crox felt (with leather/canvas etc.) bring it back either.

Recently I did the 8k for a little while, then spent a lot more time on the 12k. Then I moved onto my Alaskan Translucent/12k which even though I heard can be trouble seems to have done a good job? Then crox felt for double my previous strokes (40), then with canvas (50), plain felt (50), and 100 on the leather. Had a shave today and that razor was very smooth and sharp, great shave! :)

But even as smooth and sharp as it was I could tell it wasn't at the highest sharpness level as when I bought it originally from Bob Keyes, so it's a good comparison for me at least to see where my skills are at and what equipment I need.

The 'touch up' I did on the the above razor was a little over kill but I wanted to test what level I needed to get it sharp at least. Now I'll try scale down how much honing I did for the next time, and perhaps try more crox stropping in the mean time. I'm only at the lowest levels of honing but that's my first experience at a good honing and what it took

Hi Ken,

I've had multiple razors that I could not touch up w/ just the c12k. They are generally my better razors. I had to take each wacker back to bevel and then back up.

Most recently, I've started using slurry on the c12k. It seems to help it cut faster, but more importantly, really helped with keeping the edge smooth.

As one person said - it may take a trip back to the more coarse stones to enable the c12k to perform. I DO use tape, but that really doesn't have to do w/ a stone working or not. Having honed only about 35 edges, I'm no expert, but I do love my edges now.

If I like the feel of the TPT coming off the 8k, only then do I go to the c12k. I raise a slurry (I use a 'ruby stone', but any really hard fine stone would do - as would a dmt plate) until it's the consistency of 1-2% milk in appearance. I will often walk away until the water evaporates some & thickens the slurry. I then do about 30-40 strokes and check TPT about every 15-20. Using this method, it's possible the thick slurry is actually taking away some keen-ness but the smoothness makes up for it IMO. On a good TPT, I'll refresh the existing pc of tape, add one more for a microbevel, and give 7-8 extremely light strokes and recheck TPT. Harder steel blades take about 3x as many strokes. These last strokes seem to recover the keen-ness given up to the thick slurry. All of this process could be used without tape - so go w/ your preferences. I suspect the slurry will help speed up the effect of your C12 brick. I'm curious & would love to try other stones, but its hard to justify the cost when the brick does so well.

I would only add that as Glenn reminds us - we often underestimate stropping. I've had stropping actually dull a blade, so I recheck TPT while stropping on canvas, and on the leather. After stones, I do 30-60 on canvas w/ extreme light strokes, and 100 leather - also very light.

+1 on maybe just touching up won't do it and you might need to go to a lower grit, and do a good stropping session, stropping really works miracles imo ;p