seeking info on the best way to hone a wedge thanks gents
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seeking info on the best way to hone a wedge thanks gents
Hone it the same as any other razor. It just takes longer to set the bevel.
Some people that don't tape other razors will tape wedges to speed things up a bit.
That is a really challenging question to answer with the limited information you have. Can you hone a hollow adequately? If so, what type of wedge are you honing?
Really, some are much more difficult than others. Many of them fall into the categorie of they just take more time because the bevels are generally larger so you are moving more steel. Hope this helps some, but more info would be helpful.
Generaly, hollows are easier and some wedges are not that bad, some require more skills than a beginer can handle.
I have had some wedges hone up extremely easily like music to my ears, while others have been an absolute BEAR set bevel, and I mean it.
Correctly said before me, the real challenge is setting the bevel. Everything else is simple for me.
I believe the difficulty in bevel setting on a wedge is the temper of and the type of the steel, then how close to a true wedge we are talking. Many refer to what is between, and including, a quarter hollow and a true wedge, ie. Henckel scale 2-3. I fall into that camp too.
Tape certainly helps, as does knowing the variety of X stroke you will in all likeliness require, due to the smiling nature of their edges.
I like to tape then do 40 circles per side several time if needed at 1K level to set the bevel. Use this as a starting point, then post back and let us know how you get on.
As others have said, one layer of tape on the spine to start with and dont move off your 1k until you can easily shave arm hair at skin level.
A lot of wedges tend to have a slight smile to them so you'll more than likely need to do a rolling X stroke/ rolling circles to get full coverage along the edge. Watch the ripple of water and make sure it moves evenly along the edge as you go. If it doesnt then you'll end up with dull spots on the edge.
I'm the same as Scipio, I use a layer of tape and then use a pattern of 40 circles a side and 20 X strokes, repeated until I have a shavable edge. The most important thing is to make sure you're getting the WHOLE edge, not just a bit of it.
You dont say what hones you have? Some, like the 1k Naniwa, tend to dish out fairly fast so you might find that a harder stone like the 1200 DMT or Shapton 1k help you here as you'll be removing more metal on a wedge than a hollow ground. JMHO of course!
Good luck and keep us posted!
There is some great info above ...
BUT
One thing that needs to be pointed out
A wedge hones EXACTLY the same as any other razor, the difference comes in the fact that 'Most" are at least 100 years old and "Most" have been honed over the years by many people,, So the work in setting the bevel, is actually correcting all the previous hone wear,, Then and only then can you hone the razor..
There are tricks to honing wedges that have to do with tape, but know this, if you tape (especially multiple layers) then hone, you are simply honing around the problems and the edge will never be, what it is really capable of... Once you hone an NOS or at least an wedge that isn't "hone worn" you are going to realize why many are so hard to hone...
If you are a restorer I would recommend setting the bevel then restoring the razor it will save you a ton of heartache later...
The real wedge stroke is a 45 degree heel forward X as that is the stroke that will let you feel all the multiple bevels as you hone. If you do that stroke on an older worn wedge you can actually feel the "Bumpity bump" as it goes across the hone. If you want to FIX the bevel you have to master this stoke, if you just want to get a halfway good edge and move on, then tape it, and learn the Rolling/Rocking X as that will sharpen the edge, but will not correct the whole bevel...
I know that isn't really what you want to hear, because it is HOURS of work to correct an old worn multiple bevel, the good news is the choice is yours and it is your razor :)
Glen, I'm also about to start honing wedges. Does the stroke you describe start out heel-forward and end toe-forward? That's how I've been imagining it. Sham has a video on YouTube where he does that stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Just throwing this out there. How about the double bevel? I had two wedges that I was honing not too long ago, and posted a couple threads in the honing forum about one in particular that was really taking me for a canoe ride. Anyway, I was using Basil's coti at the time, and went to the coticule.be website and followed the wedge honing instructions there.
After spending a bunch of time on the Norton's, and having a massive bevel to show for it, this method cleaned the bevel right up, and both wedges shave incredibly well.
My two cents. Not sure if this helps or if it's a wrench, but that one wedge was giving me a headache from all the banging against the wall I was doing.
I honed (Crescent barber hone/lathered) my John Pitts 6/8 Wedge as I did my Hollows-but used electrician's tape (one layer) for the last 20 X passes per side. That really brought the bevel to proper angle. I polished (Escher) 40 X passes without tape and stropped 50 strokes on "sharpen", and 50 strokes on "finish" (Austin, TX Shumate Strop (pre-1904). It was an extra effort to get the John Pitts shaving again, but it was worth it. The difference I notice between a hollow and a wedge is that there is absolutely no sound as the wedge shaves! Not even a quiet "skritch" as it cuts the whiskers. I really like using a good wedge. To me they are worth the extra effort and time. Today (Thanksgiving, 2010) was a good shaving day and I am thankful for having Straight Razor Place for help and fellowship. Keep healthy friends, RRR
If you look in the Wiki here that is called a swooping stroke, no biggie what you call it, I named it that years ago.. Many people use it and call it different things, to pull the toe into shape on the older Barber's Notches, and yes it works well, but that is more for a razor that has a curved toe...Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkinLondon
For the stroke I am talking about, bring the razor straight across the hone in an X with the heel angled forward you are going to feel the bevels as they go across the hones.. Just try it slowly at first, it really isn't hard to do, it is just hard to do for hours :D
Lets see who I can pi$$ off by saying this hehehe, but it takes quite a few wedges to really get the hang of honing them out, really no two are the same since so many different people honed them they each have separate problems, the less hone wear on the spine the easier they are to hone...I always love when someone hones their first wedge and gets a good one and they think they are sooooo easy, then the next one kicks their butt.. :)
You also are going to run into the infamous W&B heel warps, those are tons of fun :)
OK now that I gave you the horror stories, of what you should do, here is a fast down and dirty trick to get a wedge shaving without having to do all the work...
This will not correct the bevel and spine but it will get the wedge shaving with a pretty even bevel...
I am not sure this is typing mistake or not but you have confused me. I quote your words and let us know did you really do this?
[QUOTE=timberrr59;694131]I honed (Crescent barber hone/lathered) my John Pitts 6/8 Wedge as I did my Hollows-but used electrician's tape (one layer) for the last 20 X passes per side. That really brought the bevel to proper angle.Only quoted words blue colors?Quote:
I polished (Escher) 40 X passes without tape and stropped 50 strokes on "sharpen", and 50 strokes on "finish" (Austin, TX Shumate Strop (pre-1904). It was an extra effort to get the John Pitts shaving again, but it was worth it. The difference I notice between a hollow and a wedge is that there is absolutely no sound as the wedge shaves! Not even a quiet "skritch" as it cuts the whiskers. I really like using a good wedge. To me they are worth the extra effort and time. Today (Thanksgiving, 2010) was a good shaving day and I am thankful for having Straight Razor Place for help and fellowship. Keep healthy friends, RRR
thank you
Yes, I did this: My hone is a Crescent brand, I used lather on it and did final X-pattern passes (laps) after using circular/X laps like I do with hollow grind blades. Polishing was done on an Escher using X-pattern passes only. I removed the tape from the spine before polishing. The old strop has two leather strops, one is thick and has "Sharpen" stamped on it, the other is thinner and has "Finish" stamped on it. I mentioned the brand names for reference; not trying to be confusing. This wedge razor honing took place at the kitchen table while my wife prepared our Thanksgiving meal. It took about an hour to complete and was successful (honing & meal).
Tip: plan to hone and polish razors while spending time with your spouse. They like the company and seem glad to see someone busy doing something. I always have a razor or a knife in the truck to be sharpened while I wait out in the parking lot while she goes grocery shopping or to Wal-Mart. It passes the time and my steel gets sharp. Good luck with all that...
+100 to this.. I have 2 wedges I have honed.. one honed up nice and easy ( I put a single piece of tape on it ). The next one was a bear that took me 3 months of on and off honing to get the bevel finally set because it frustrated me so. :gaah:Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberrr59
You mention you removed the tape from the spine before polishing.
if understand you correctly you did polishing with Escher stone. 40x pattern.
Now in reality you have not done any escher work on that blade.
if you want to eschers effect on your razor You shouldn't remove the tape before moving to escher stone.
while you strop, it (strop) bends and covers small angle differences but hone will never do this.
hope this helps.gl
Gunner, thank You! This helps quite a bit. 'Explains some behaviors I get from the first vintage wedges.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
That the stroke would have to be mastered makes sense - well said & illustrated. What I'm not understanding is if the mastery of this stroke 'performs' the correction, or simply makes clear the correction needed. Either way, I have some skill to master, but it would be helpful to know if this stroke corrects as well as diagnoses.
Many Thanks for your kind & generous help!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
Yes it will correct the edge, and the best part is that you can actually feel it straighten out... The edge will lose all the other bevels, and get really smooth as it comes in... it is pretty cool the way it works...
As it evens up you can start to switch over to that swooping stroke and get points like a barber's notch sharp too.
Now once it it even, you can restore the blade if that is your intention, then tape and reduce the size of the bevel if you want too, since the bevel and the spine are all nice and straight again...
Honestly if you take some of these old beauties and sight down the edge at a light you can actually see the wavy bevel...
'Gunner, THANK YOU!!
This is great news, and it's hard to say how much your kind help is appreciated.
'Hope you & yours have/had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Good post there :)
After I figured this out on my first few monster wedges I find I don't notice myself doing it automaticly with new wedges. It only dawned on me that I had it down when I got one full wedge shaving in about 20 minutes. Doing just what has just been discribed.
Ya I'm still learning wedges as I have dedicated my future razors to only heavy wedges :) Reminds me I have 6 more to get up and running :p
I'm sitting here wondering how setting a bevel with tape, and then removing the tape to finish is doing anything other than setting a second bevel that won't come close to touching the edge of the razor. (I think that's what Sham is saying).
Currently being on a near wedge "kick", I just received two 1/4 hollow wedges from Sham that were both excellent. I tried the Wade & Butcher out yesterday, but didn't have time to finish my last pass, as I was running late for Thanksgiving dinner with my neighbors. So, I finished with my DE (something I haven't touched for almost 2 months now). I sat there feeling my face thinking, "Yeah, this is pretty close".
But, tonight I broke out Sham's Frederick Renolds near wedge, and damn (!!) it was the same closeness as I had finishing with my DE yesterday--even around my chin, which I've never gotten before with a straight.
In Sham's ad, he stated, "i have set the bevel without taping etc to correct the angle".
Therein lies the tie into this thread. I assume that what Sham did to get such a nice bevel is what Glenn has described--thanks for the info, Glenn!! (At the time I bought the razor, I didn't know what Sham was talking about, but, coming from Sham I figured it had to be good--now with Glenn's input on this thread, it's making more sense to me).
As an aside, after my catract surgery, I have one eye that's far sighted, and one eye that's near sighted. The result is I see double vision with glasses (this condition--known as "prism"--isn't correctable with glasses, it's permanent; so my choices are to wear contacts, which I can't do right now because of an eye infection; or to have a cataract surgery on the other eye, which my doc doesn't want to do until all alternatives--meaning the contacts lenses--are exhausted). So, in order to shave, I have to do so without glasses, otherwise I see 2 faces and 2 straight razors, and wonder which face to shave first!).
So, I've been shaving entirely by feel, and as a result, I can't see much of anything in the mirror. Twice using the Fredrick Reynolds, I felt what I was sure would leave a slice when shaving my throat (at least, I think it would have if it was full hollow). But, there weren't any traces of red at all!
Near wedges are just very user friendly!! (Especially when coming from Sham!).
Kent
That is why I'm not much for tape. I use tape to set the first bevel. After that I remove the tape and set the bevel again on the same stone. It doesn't take long to remove that higher angles bulge and saves the most amount of grinding from the spine. After that the edge, bevel, and spine are in line and working.
I have used electrician's tape to make a spine thicker very rarely because I only have one wedge razor. It really helped getting good bevel with my John Pitts wedge. As for taping, many times I use Scotch Tape or that tough-A thin mylar packaging tape to preserve the spine from excessive honing wear. I think that was what I had on my mind as I honed the Pitts when I removed the tape prior to polishing. Even thin tape counts. I shall never again remove ANY tape during polishing. The resultant shave was very good-but a good polishing WITH electrician's re-applied to the spine is in order for an even better shave! It does make good sense to keep the tape on during polishing. That way the cutting edge does indeed meet the surface of the polishing hone. No double bevel to deal with either. This is a great topic to discuss. Good geometry science for a practical task. Thanks, RRR
'Have done the scoop stroke on an old Eyre meat chopper, but that's the last time I did it. 'Takes some getting used to. The issue seemed to be trying to keep the heel on the stone as long as possible after the toe passes through the 12 O'clock position. 'A little more challenging on the return stroke.
Mid-arc, there was more drag, audible feedback on the norton 1k. 'Resulted in a much more consistent edge across the length of the edge, though the width of the bevel varied some - as did the hone wear on the spine. Touch-up test on the face was promising.
Thanks Again, Glen.
Stupid question about taping... what keeps the taping from being wore down by the stone? The stone cuts metal, so it has to be eating the tape, no?
When you switch hones, you are supposed to change out the tape. That minimizes how much tape comes off.
This really really varies greatly with the Hone, the Tape, and the actual configuration of the Spine..Quote:
Originally Posted by souschefdude
But like mentioned above if you at least change the Tape at each stage of honing ie: bevel, sharpen, finish, you should have little issues, also keep in mind this is a good guide to your honing skills also..
If you are burning through the tape, you are not torqueing the edge into the hone and you would be causing excessive spine wear if you were not using tape :hmmm: this is why many people recommend at least learning to hone with tape.. When you don't need to change the tape often then you can feel more confident in removing it from your honing :)
BTW I have found through trial that the 3M #700 or #88 seems to have the best wear resistance, but if you are using tape as an indicator to your honing progress it is best to start with one brand and stick with it...
Quick question for you, Glen (or anyone else who might know)...
I have a W&B that's either near wedge or quarter hollow. This thing was beaten to death it seems, and I'd like to see some life in the old girl. As I'm sure you can imagine, tons of uneven hone wear, wavy bevel etc.
Now, doing the 45 degree heel leading stroke to correct the bevel I get. Doing it on a wedge, or near wedge, I get, and I definitely plan on using this on the W&B.
My question would be that if this blade were, say, a full hollow smiling blade w/ a barber's notch, to correct the same issues I could do the same stroke with a lower number of strokes, and then switch to swooping strokes for the toe/notch correct?
Yes, there is honestly no difference between honing a New heavy blade and a New hollow blade, the problems arise in the 100+ years of bad hone wear that have been put on many of them over the years..Quote:
Originally Posted by crouton976
The older Hollows hone the same they just require fewer laps "In General"
Well how about that... I CAN BE TAUGHT!!!
Thank you, good sir!!