Slow cutters, heavy blade

I have this Walker that should hone like a wedge. Unfortunately, so far I've only had experience with full hollows. The only equipment that I have are the slow cutting 4k/8k Japs and a coticule (irrelevant at this point). I got it to the point where it's sharp enough to cause injury and pop the occasional hair, but nowhere near shave-ready.
Are there any variations in the number of strokes or technique that will allow me to put a shaving edge on this puppy? I am assuming I should just keep it flat on the hone and do a whole bunch of pyramids for hours until it finally starts resembling my Taylor/Satinedge. Also one side seems to be sharper than the other, so should I put some extra pressure on it or keep going and let the problem correct itself?

P.S. No "buy a Norton" replies please. I will get one eventually but I'm trying to get this done with what I have ATM.

Spend more time on the 4000 before performing a pyramid.
Unfortunately I have no experience with your specific Japs or your razor so I cannot say precisely how many laps to do on the 4000. Try 20 laps o the 4000 then move on to the pyramid.
Repeat if necessary. Be sure to use a slurry on the 4000 jap for sure.

Just the man I was waiting for :D Thanks Randy. I actually got 2 razors shave-ready without using slurries. However one had extensive honing done on a Norton and the other is a delicately ground DD so it didn't take much to hone. On the other hand, this Walker came in dull and had a couple of major nicks near the top, which I had to remove with a rough Norton oilstone. I guess I'm resigned to just putting in the time as I love the shape of the blade and they don't make'em like that any more (to my knowledge). So let me just confirm your instructions:

20 on the 4k, the pyramid and if it doesn't work, I repeat the 20 4k+ pyramid process again? All with just enough pressure to maintain contact with the hone or should I start heavier?

Sorry, I forgot to mention the pressure thing.:o

Start heavier (1-2 lbs) but only on the 4000. Do not use pressure during the pyramid. Since you are using slower cutting Japs you may want to adjust the pyramid to
10/7
10/7
10/7
7/7
7/7
7/7
5/7
5/7
5/7
3/7
3/7
3/7

Give it a try and see what the rate of change is then adjust the number of laps accordingly.

As I went to get a cup of coffee I thought I had better give a more complete answer to your question. Here goes...

I am assuming the the edge of the Walker razor does NOT! have a smile type profile but rather is the same as the DD, straight.

Since you used a Norton oilstone to remove the nicks then you do have your work cut out for you. This will require patience when using the Japs.

Since you have successfully honed to other razors then you obviously have both the tools and basic technique necessary to get the job done. Now it boils down to the steel and the shape of the blade. My guess is that the steel is tempered harder than the others you have. Since you have honed the other two razors you are aware of the rate of change that is occuring with the Walker and how that compares to the others. You can judge the hardness of the steel from that.

The shape of the edge (smile, straight, frown)is now the only remaining question.
Let us know.

OK, I just saw your Walker blade on the Restoration forum.
Now I understand the problem. The shape of the blade is a "smile". This requires a different honing stroke. Use an X pattern but instead of keeping the blade perpendiular to the hone start the honing stroke with the blade at a 45 degree angle. Try that stroke and see if the entire edge is being abraded. If not then adjust the stroke from starting at a 45 degree angle and as you bring the razor down and across the hone bring the tip of the razor "almost" back to perpendicular.
Be sure to bring the razor completely off the bottom of the hone.

Hope this helps,:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

... adjust the stroke from starting at a 45 degree angle and as you bring the razor down and across the hone bring the tip of the razor "almost" back to perpendicular.

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Aren't we really looking for the rolling point of contact from heel to tip? You description can still leave the heel unhoned and even if the heel is contacted and the rolling done your advice may lead to extra honing toward the tip as it travels further on the hone. I mean the 'X' motion does this anyway and I find that it sometimes neglects the heel.

X

Hello X,

Thanks for taking the time to post your views.

This is one tough razor to give advice on. I am simply trying to give him some ideas on what other honing strokes may be used for this razor. He has said that the X pattern does not work for this razor so what we are left with is experimentation until we find what works for this razor using his hones.

Yes we are looking for a rolling point of contact from the heel to the toe(tip) of the razor and trying to have a unifrom amount of wear on the razor. How best to accomplish this for that specific razor is an open question.:confused: If you have any suggestions please post them. I would appreciate some suggestions from others
On a razor like this is when I would prefer to have a narrow hone, 1"-1 1/2", to achieve a more uniform amount of wear and an easier time keeping the edge in contact with the hone.
Aha! Now I have justification to buy more hones!:rolleyes:

It is difficult for me to express in writing my inteneded tone of this conversation so just let me say that I really appreciate having you on this thread and forum.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xman

Aren't we really looking for the rolling point of contact from heel to tip? You description can still leave the heel unhoned and even if the heel is contacted and the rolling done your advice may lead to extra honing toward the tip as it travels further on the hone. I mean the 'X' motion does this anyway and I find that it sometimes neglects the heel.

X

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I think this is the razor Ilija brought over to my place and if it is I've had it on my Norton hone. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ilija. If I'm not, I seem to recall that it wanted a pretty firm hand on the 4k side and something much lighter on the 8k. This is a bit standard, but I found it pretty prominent on that razor. Although I got it popping hairs it apparently failed the shave test (surprise surprise, the HHT is not the be-all-and-end-all) but a regular pyramid on his Japanese stones after my work provided a good shave. Is that all true, Ilija?

I tend to do something that Lynn had brought up which is hone with the razor at an angle, heel leading AND draw it somewhat off the hone throughout the stroke, BUT I keep the angle constant. Using the rolling motion with this action is like simulating a thinner hone since the point of contact moves up the razor which is moving down the hone so that point of contact is moving almost directly across or straight along the hone. As I am actually using a 3" wide hone, there is the added benefit of stability for any deviation which may occur.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xman

I think Although I got it popping hairs it apparently failed the shave test (surprise surprise, the HHT is not the be-all-and-end-all) but a regular pyramid on his Japanese stones after my work provided a good shave.

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Sometimes, the first shave after the honing session is not so good, so you might try shaving second and third time to see where you stand...

Nenad

Thank you gentlemen (especially Randy who did a lot of very instructive writing). Here's some missing info/what I've been doing so far:
Info
1) It's NOT the Taylor's I brought over to you, X. It's a "new" blade.
2) It is smiling
3) Lots of steel to remove as it's not a hollow grind by any means.

Actions
1) Removed the MAJOR nicks with the rough Norton Oilstone. It maintained a nice smiling profile.
2) Did some work on the 1000grit sandpaper, just to reestablish the basic bevel.
3) Some circular honing on the bottom side of the 4k
4) 20 passes + regular pyramids. Been using a heel to toe scything motion in my X patter with very little pressure when doing the pyramids.

Here's where I'm at now:
1) the heel of the blade is relatively sharp, won't need much more honing.
2) The middle portion is almost shave ready. Shears through hairs at high altitudes effortlessly.
3) The toe is extremely dull. The only way it will shave arm hairs is with LOTS skin contact, which (for all you n00bs out there) is ofcourse a big no-no. I'm ticked off b/c of it.

Should i take the toe back to the 4k and just do some circular work until I establish a bevel in that region?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfly

Sometimes, the first shave after the honing session is not so good, so you might try shaving second and third time to see where you stand...

Nenad

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And sometimes the first shave can be great but the subsequent ones can be horrible. After I took the Taylor's to X's place, I guess it got overhoned with our honing session.. The first shave was great, but the 2nd one irritated the heck out of my skin. Gave it two very light pyramids on the Jap and since then, I've only been doing touchup honing on my FAVORITE razor. The Satinedge was a much finer grind, so it was easier to hone, but only taking it to the coticule brough it up to being a CLOSE second to the Eye Witness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Here's where I'm at now:
1) the heel of the blade is relatively sharp, won't need much more honing.
2) The middle portion is almost shave ready. Shears through hairs at high altitudes effortlessly.
3) The toe is extremely dull. The only way it will shave arm hairs is with LOTS skin contact, which (for all you n00bs out there) is ofcourse a big no-no. I'm ticked off b/c of it.

Should i take the toe back to the 4k and just do some circular work until I establish a bevel in that region?

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I'd say the problem is simply in the difference in pressure between beginning your stroke at the heel and ending it at the toe. I'd do a full pyramid making whatever change you feel would be most beneficial, say more pressure to the toe because you.re not putting the 4k striations in place. If that doesn't work make a different change, say less tip pressure or moving down to the tip of the blade sooner. A process of elimination should get you tere.

X

The problem is in the exact region that i took to the rough hone to remove those nicks. With all my other blades, the toe is as sharp as the rest of the blade. I'll try going circular on the 1k just in that region and then try the rolling pyramids again. Probably not tonight as I have a TON of work to do.

Just a gratitude note from a honing noobie: this is a really engaging and instructive thread! Most discussions of honing are more general in content. Listening to the detailed problem-solving about one troublesome razor on one particular set of stones is a cool change of pace.

I'm glad you're finding it useful. As you can see even some of us who have honed a few blades with a degree of success can still learn from each other and the masters like Randy. Unlike some of the true honemeisters, I've never honed a blade that's that massive, so curved in shape and that suffered such an extensive damage before I got to it. I may bite the bullet and just buy a Norton to make this job and other future projects easier on my hands and my schedule.

I had a chat about solving this problem with Randy tonight. Wanted to post this sooner but then my boss called me and held me up for a while. Randy proved himself to be a top notch guy, extremely helpful and a great creative problem-solver (as if it wasn't apparent already). The purpose of this post is just to give Randy a big THANK YOU! Anyways I better run and finish my work for tonight.