Can you set a bevel with a Norton 4K?

Gentleman,

I have done some research and read many of the pages on the Wiki part of this site, and all are very useful however they do not answer certain questions.

Firstly is it possible to set a bevel with a Norton 4K and also, once this bevel is set properly, should it be popping arm hair off your inner arm?

Ideally a 1k (or lower) would be used in bevel setting correct? So as a 4k would be removing far less material would more strokes on the 4k give a decent bevel from which to move to the 8k? In the region of 100-200 Maybe even more? After this has been done, would it be a good idea to use one of the conservative pryamids from 15 passes on the combo 4k/8k and a stropping bring it to shave readiness?

Thanks for any help,

Regards,

Richard

Yes !!!

This is a video I just did the other day specifically to help a guy over at TSD who is having a problem honing a Boker on a Norton 4/8 and no other stone he was using the Pyramids so there is some reference to it in there but you can use either Pyramid or Progressive in the middle... Hope that helps



YouTube - gssixgun honing Norton 4-8

In the video when you say that the slurry is turning grey, im assuming this is the particles of the blade that have been 'honed off' so to speak. Is it ok to carry on with this metal type slurry or to wash the stone regularly?

Thanks,

Rich

I just dilute it out as I hone, then finally rinse it off..

In general though, you can work a slurry until it gets Black or darn close to it at that point in time at least IMHO it needs changing out... Others might have different opinions on how far to take it...

I think setting the bevel on a Norton 4K really amounts to what you are asking. The amount of strokes involved. So part of this really depends on the technique you are using. The 4K can still be pretty abrasive depending on the number of strokes involved and pressure you are using. A couple hundred strokes with medium pressure would not be out of the question when setting a bevel on one. I generally look for the hair on the forearm to be shaved effortlessly coming off the 4K. Once close, you can work in series of 5-10 X strokes until your there. At that point, 15 on a pyramid would probably be a little too much. I would recommend starting with 5 which is 5 on the 4K and 8K, followed by 3 on each followed by 1-3 and then 1-5. It may take a couple of 1-3 and 1-5's to be shave ready off the 8K. I would normally go to a finishing stone for 10 strokes followed by 10 strokes on .5 diamond spray on felt, but the razor can be made shave ready off the 8K followed by a stropping.

The other technique on the 4K/8K is to do 40 circles with firm pressure followed by 40 circles light pressure and then 5-10 X strokes on the 4K with minimal pressure and then 5-10 X strokes on the 8K with minimal pressure. If you're not right on at this point, 3-5 very light strokes on the 8K can be used to dial the razor in. On the front end, you can do another set of firm circles and light circles too for the bevel setting if needed. The key here is what shape the razor is in. If you have an ebay special, it could take a while longer and a lot more strokes or circles without having a 1K. If your razor is in decent condition, you should be OK.

The swarf or black stuff on the hones is normal. I usually do around a dozen razors before cleaning/lapping my Norton.

Have fun,

Lynn

Thats brilliant Chaps, thank you very much! Will lap my stone tomorrow and I am sure you will hear the results sooner or later!

Thank you very much for your expertise :)

Richard

Just another quick question do you need to lap the 8k side of a norton aswell as the 4k?

Regards,

Richard

Richard,

Yup - flatten/lap both sides :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

I have lapped both sides of the stone and really was amazed at how different the two sides feel after lapping!

I followed advice on this thread and haven't managed to get the razor to pop hairs off my arm (as in the video at this stage, which worried me a bit) I can only speculate as to why, however i think it might have been not using enough pressure when setting the bevel.

I will try a shave off it tomorrow (after stropping) and then if its not satisfactory i might go back to the drawing board and try a larger amount of circles of the 4k with more pressure to really set the bevel.

I spent ages trying to get the hair to pop off my forearm but to no avail, so it must be me getting it wrong on the 4k side!!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,

Richard

Try the Thumbnail Test too...

That is another test for a bevel set,,, you drag the edge across the top of your wet thumbnail using only the weight of the blade...

A sharp blade will dig in lightly and grab the nail, a dull blade will slide easily, and a rolled edge with grab but feel rough,,

If the bevel is not sharp from heel to toe, the razor will not shave smoothly...

What razor are you sharpening and what condition is it in???? all these instructions need variation depending on that too...

I tried the thumbnail test and the blade dug in straight away, so form that i assumed that the bevel was set correctly.

I am currently using an eBay special as i though there's no point ruining a decent razor with my poor skills, hence why i did a lot of preliminary strokes on the 4k as i assumed that it need a LOT of work.


Richard

It sounds like you are on the right track then, try a shave and see what happens, worst case, you come back do another Pyramid or two and finishing sequence and tweek it in...

Thank you very much for your advice, hopefully it will go ok! :)

Richard

Remember that a Norton 4K new has a grainy feel to it. I am still finding that I need to lap about 1/8 inch away to get past that graininess. Once the 4K side starts feeling smooth, you should be good to go and your honing should improve as well.

Have fun,

Lynn

Ahh yes thanks Lynn! I lapped the 4k 3 times using 400 grit sandpaper and the pencil grids, but it still has that grainy feeling when i ran the razor over it (whilst I cringed!) I think i shall mark 1/8" down the side and lap away! As i said in a previous post i was amazed at how smooth the 8k was after lapping. I wont achieve this with the 4k however im sure i can improve the surface.

Would it be a good idea to use a finishing paper for the 4k, i have 600 at the ready?

Thanks for all your advice, test shave tonight with yesterdays honing :)

Richard

You should be ok just going with the 325, but the 600 won't hurt. The main thing is that you don't want to feel that graininess. Once it's gone, you're good to go.

Have fun,

Lynn

After a few hours of blood sweat and tears i have got some frustrating results to say the least! I have managed to get the third of the blade nearest the scales to pass HHT-3 (which all beit isnt amazing) however it means im doing something right.

From previous sessions i thought my hone was curved hence why the other end of the blade was not getting even contact, so i put more emphasis on the rolling x stroke today, however it seems to be to no avail. :(

I did lap the 4k side again using the pencil grids and using 400 grit and 600 grit sandpaper. Is there anything profoundly wrong, or is it time to get a DMT D8C or the norton flattening stone? Please note im not using the nagura prep stone for slurry.

Thanks

Richard

If using a 4k as a bevel setter, use lots of slurry. Smoother and easier to gradually get to an 8-10k. It's hard this, learn from the experts.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the popping arm hairs thing. Arm hair is very variable and some people can never get theirs to tree-top or pop.

The shave test is the ultimate test but if you learn how to "calibrate" the HHT for your source of hair it can be very useful.

-john

I don't want to hijack this thread but I'm also having a little difficulty identifying when a bevel is set (mostly because I don't have arm hair so I can't just pop a couple of them to see if a bevel is ready).

So if I gather correctly I'd a resort passes the thumbnail test it has a bevel set?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperSpeedRacer

I don't want to hijack this thread but I'm also having a little difficulty identifying when a bevel is set (mostly because I don't have arm hair so I can't just pop a couple of them to see if a bevel is ready).

So if I gather correctly I'd a resort passes the thumbnail test it has a bevel set?

---

You can buy a loupe on Amazon with LED lights (40x) to look at the bevel and see if it's set:

Amazon.com: 40 X 25mm Glass Lens Jeweler Loupe Magnifier With LED: Office Products

I usually test by seeing how well the razor shaves arm hair (it should shave arm hair effortlessly) and inspect the length of the bevel on both sides with the loupe before going to higher grits.

-john

Is there any other tests than the arm hair test? I have unusually hairless arms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuperSpeedRacer

I don't want to hijack this thread but I'm also having a little difficulty identifying when a bevel is set (mostly because I don't have arm hair so I can't just pop a couple of them to see if a bevel is ready).

So if I gather correctly I'd a resort passes the thumbnail test it has a bevel set?

---

There are basically 3 tests for a solid bevel set

TNT
TPT
AHT

Try and learn and use them all, but you have to have one that never fails you...

There is a thread about a 1k shave test but I don't advise that for newbs it is more of a learning experience for people after they have managed a few successful honings

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html

But as you can see some of the guys used it to good advantage..


A new DE blade can teach you what to feel for on many of these tests

I am also having trouble knowing when to move to finishing stones. I now own more hones than I do razors! I have a 1k-6k combo stone, a naniwa 4k,8k,10k. Effectively it's 5 bloody stones. The 1 K is yet to arrive, but I don't want to go crazy and hone it for an eternity. What fellas, is a good way to make use of all these stones. I am getting acceptable results with razors I hone, but they aren't as good as the one professionally honed by member havachat45, which are even after 2 months good to go. Am I using too much presure or not enough, pyramids or progression? I know it's subjective, but now I have all the tools. 2 dovo prima klangs and bismarck 6/8 brand new. Havachat45 did one of the Prima Klangs, so I can directly compare his hone and mine. Not a huge difference, but nonethless not as good. I'm cynical when it comes to Thumb nail tests. the idea is to sharpen the blade not dull it, it's like drinking arsenic to make sure it will kill you? When the 1k arrives I'm thinking it won't take nearly as long to set a correct bevel.....being a beginner can be frustration, looking at Lynn and gssixgun do it, why is it so hard for me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobski

I am also having trouble knowing when to move to finishing stones. I now own more hones than I do razors! I have a 1k-6k combo stone, a naniwa 4k,8k,10k. Effectively it's 5 bloody stones. The 1 K is yet to arrive, but I don't want to go crazy and hone it for an eternity. What fellas, is a good way to make use of all these stones. I am getting acceptable results with razors I hone, but they aren't as good as the one professionally honed by member havachat45, which are even after 2 months good to go. Am I using too much presure or not enough, pyramids or progression? I know it's subjective, but now I have all the tools. 2 dovo prima klangs and bismarck 6/8 brand new. Havachat45 did one of the Prima Klangs, so I can directly compare his hone and mine. Not a huge difference, but nonethless not as good. I'm cynical when it comes to Thumb nail tests. the idea is to sharpen the blade not dull it, it's like drinking arsenic to make sure it will kill you? When the 1k arrives I'm thinking it won't take nearly as long to set a correct bevel.....being a beginner can be frustration, looking at Lynn and gssixgun do it, why is it so hard for me?

---

When it comes to just about anything a pro who has been doing it for years can make anything look easy. I'll bet when Lynn honed his first razor he had issues.

My first real hone was the Norton 4K/8K and I restored I don't know how many razors with the 4K before I finally broke down and got the 1K combo. The 4K works fine for bevels. it just takes longer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

There are basically 3 tests for a solid bevel set

TNT
TPT
AHT

Try and learn and use them all, but you have to have one that never fails you...

There is a thread about a 1k shave test but I don't advise that for newbs it is more of a learning experience for people after they have managed a few successful honings

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html

But as you can see some of the guys used it to good advantage..


A new DE blade can teach you what to feel for on many of these tests

---

Thanks for the reply. I've been using DE blades as a reference for the TPT. I still haven't been able to get an edge that sharp yet when bevel setting. I get close but I seem to then make an error and degrade the edge. I think I need to get more consistent with the pressure I'm using. I find I have a hard time keeping the razor flat unless I use both hands. And, I think I must start pressing down as I go.

P.S. I love your videos on YouTube. I've been using them to guide my honing strategy. It really helps that you state what you're looking for in the way the razor feels on the stone.

Update: I think I worked through the error I was making. I managed to get a nice bevel set, polished it up on my PHIG and got a remarkably comfortable shave out of the crappy sacrificial Gold Dollar I bought just to learn how to hone.