Ain't got the touch :-(

I've been at this for about 7 months, and while I can get my razors to shave me, I just can't seem to get the smooth comfortable shave. The razors always drag a little bit, especially in the dense area around my chin. I did get one razor shaving me comfortable for a while, but I can't seem to do this consistently. I've been very careful about my hone preparation, making sure they are sufficiently flat and smooth. I also have a variety of hones now (Norton 4/8, Shapton 15, and yellow coticule) and have tried all of them with various success. I'm very gentle with the blades and don't use much pressure at all on the hones or the strop. In short, my razors are close to good, but not quite there. I can get them to pass the HHT off the hone, but just barely.

I think there must be wrong something in my technique... I use 3" wide hones, and lead with the heel first to get the X-pattern. The last two months I have NOT purposely worked up a slurry on any of my hones. Hope this isn't too vague.

Any suggestions?

E

i still have fits honing. Sometimes i can get them to pass the HHT (barely) sometimes I can not. what helped me bring razors to a more comfortable level is using a pasted strop. It is my intention to keep using the pasted strop and contimue to work on my honing technique. Someday I hope to be able to get a great shave with just hones. But even some of our most noted honers here finish with paste

E,

If it's any consolation, you're not alone. I'm in the same boat. I picked up a Norton 4k/8k the other day and thought finally I've got the right hone now to get that great edge. On my first go round with it, my razor came out worse than when I started. I've gotten better edges off 2k sandpaper. I can now get an edge that's good enough to keep me from giving up, but I've concluded that honing is more a black art than science. Hang in there. It'll come eventually.

Mike

I just got a third razor to shave comfortable (the Watco I’ve been working on for awhile) and I have yet to get one to pass a HHT off the hone. The pasted strop I got from Tony has greatly contributed to my success.

I would suggest being a little more aggressive honing. Do not go crazy on the 4k side but try using more pressure than what you are using now. Using pressure is almost like using a different hone. I really like to use the circular pattern to establish a good even bevel. This also gets rid of micro size chips and oxidation. Two factors that equal a not so great shave. A Radio Shack microscope ($8.00) will be a big help at this stage. Back off the pressure as you are honing until you are back to removing hardly any metal. As far as the chin area is concerned extra prep is required and pull the skin tighter.

Glen

If you're getting them close, try 5 strokes on the 8K side of the Norton followed by 10 strokes on the Coticule. Test and shave. May take two or three times to get it to the point you like. Keep us posted. Lynn

I would also suggest using some pressure on the 8K of the Notron. It helps on the 4K also. Lately, I am using only the 8K to refresh my razors, about 10 strokes per razor...

Nenad

Try Lynns approach first. The use of pressure is a last resort.
Generally speaking I only use presure on the 4000 stone and then only when I am wearing off nicks and old steel. After that then I stop using pressure on the 4000.
One of the things I have noticed is that people do not use a slow honing stroke, they go to fast. This results in a slightly rounded edge. Try slowing down....try using a 1.5-2 second stroke per side of the razor.

The other thing I have noticed is that people are not focusing on keeping an equal distribution of pressure along both the length of the blade and the width of the blade. There should be the same pressure on the edge and the spine and from the heel to the toe.

Just my two cents,:)

Also consider a bit more pressure on the strop. Just enough to feel some drag on the blade. And I often go to the linen after the initial leather stropping for a few round trips and then back to the leather.
Also a few light passes on the hone again after the strop and then again on the strop may fine tune your edge.
Regarding the HHT, look for a smooth slicing and not a "popping" of the hair away from the blade.
My opinion, "popping" = "pulling."

Thanks all for the very good tips!

I will give some of these things a try and let you know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by honedright

Regarding the HHT, look for a smooth slicing and not a "popping" of the hair away from the blade.
My opinion, "popping" = "pulling."

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The one blade I have that works this way with the HHT gives the smoothest, most comfortable shave. If only I had honed it! (it came from the TI factory that way)

E

Gonna disagree with you on this one...big time!

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Originally Posted by honedright

My opinion, "popping" = "pulling."

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that's ok, and maybe it's not in the best interests of the one who started this thread to really go into it here, if at all, but defining "popping" away might be appropriate for another thread. I vaguely remember that topic was covered at one time on the old SRP site. For now though, we can agree to disagree. After all, I did say it was just my opinion. :)

Still not wanting to get too far off topic here, but I found a thread on the old SRP that relates to my comment on pulling and popping. Message #4778 from May 7, 2003 goes a little into the quality of the cut while performing the HHT. First time I've read this one, but my experience has been similar to what is described and thus my comment.

Scott

:) I should haved added the smiley to the end of my post!:)
Now we can both wait for someone to say "Bah Humbug!" to the HHT. Believe me, some people don't believe its of any use.
I use it religiously but that means nothing.

Its good to see that people are paying attention!:),

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Originally Posted by honedright

that's ok, and maybe it's not in the best interests of the one who started this thread to really go into it here, if at all, but defining "popping" away might be appropriate for another thread. I vaguely remember that topic was covered at one time on the old SRP site. For now though, we can agree to disagree. After all, I did say it was just my opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

:) I should haved added the smiley to the end of my post!:)
Now we can both wait for someone to say "Bah Humbug!" to the HHT. Believe me, some people don't believe its of any use.
I use it religiously but that means nothing.

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The HHT is, for me, the only consistent test as to whether the razor will shave me well. I haven't gotten too familiar with other tests folks have posted. I'll shave later tonight with the one of the razors I've been working on... It only passes the HHT with my leg hair at a rate of about 10%. I'll let you all know how it goes...

E

I followed Lynn's advice and did 5/8 5/8 5/8 on the N8K/coticule. Stropped 40linen/40leather. The razor didn't pass the HHT any better, but the shave was definitely better. I would rate it a 6.5-7.0, up from a 3-4 before. I guess I have to eat my words... the HHT didn't tell me anything this time.

So, do I leave it at a 6.5-7.0, or do I shoot for a 9? I'll shave with it again, to see if it gets better with a little more stropping/shaving.

Thanks All!

E

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Originally Posted by ericm

I followed Lynn's advice and did 5/8 5/8 5/8 on the N8K/coticule. Stropped 40linen/40leather. The razor didn't pass the HHT any better, but the shave was definitely better. I would rate it a 6.5-7.0, up from a 3-4 before. I guess I have to eat my words... the HHT didn't tell me anything this time.

So, do I leave it at a 6.5-7.0, or do I shoot for a 9? I'll shave with it again, to see if it gets better with a little more stropping/shaving.

Thanks All!

E

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Shave again and if it still 6.5-7.0 go for the 9.0. I always want the best shave possible. Thats my 2 cents.:cool:

Learning how to get it just right is like learning how to hit the golf ball. After hours and days of work, one day it finally works.

jmsbcknr

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Originally Posted by jmsbcknr

Learning how to get it just right is like learning how to hit the golf ball. After hours and days of work, one day it finally works.

jmsbcknr

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Yeah but then you scull the next shot...:shrug: :D

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Originally Posted by gglockner

I would suggest being a little more aggressive honing. Do not go crazy on the 4k side but try using more pressure than what you are using now. Using pressure is almost like using a different hone. I really like to use the circular pattern to establish a good even bevel. This also gets rid of micro size chips and oxidation. Two factors that equal a not so great shave. A Radio Shack microscope ($8.00) will be a big help at this stage. Back off the pressure as you are honing until you are back to removing hardly any metal. As far as the chin area is concerned extra prep is required and pull the skin tighter.

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If you're getting close but not quite there, it's not likely to be a problem with the 4K. Instead, maybe you need some very low pressure honing to finish off on the 8K, or add a finer grit at the end, like a coticule or pasted strop.

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Originally Posted by ericm

I followed Lynn's advice and did 5/8 5/8 5/8 on the N8K/coticule. Stropped 40linen/40leather. The razor didn't pass the HHT any better, but the shave was definitely better. I would rate it a 6.5-7.0, up from a 3-4 before. I guess I have to eat my words... the HHT didn't tell me anything this time.

So, do I leave it at a 6.5-7.0, or do I shoot for a 9? I'll shave with it again, to see if it gets better with a little more stropping/shaving.

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I guess I'm the guy who'll say "Bah, humbug." Don't fret too much about the HHT. It's never worked for me on any razor honed by anyone. I think it may just be my fine hair. I still hone razors that shave great. But you do need to find a test that will work for you. Until you do, you'll have to go back and work the razor on a fine hone or pasted strop until it shaves just right.

So what test do you use, Joe, thumb test?

I'm trying to develop the feel for that but am having mixed success. Can the sound of the thumb running across the edge help in determining the sharpness? If yes, how do you compare different grinds?

BTW, if you can't use your own hair, use somebody else's. Maybe you can make new friends this way ;) No, seriously, I have the same problem, so I just use my girlfriend's hair that I steal out of her hair brush.

Redwoood

I'll never understand why people find honing so difficult.............you put your razor and $20 in a box, mail it to Lynn and he will hone it every time, no fuss, no problems, no worries <g>.

Tony (still a better stropper than honer) Miller

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Originally Posted by Redwoood

So what test do you use, Joe, thumb test?

I'm trying to develop the feel for that but am having mixed success. Can the sound of the thumb running across the edge help in determining the sharpness? If yes, how do you compare different grinds?

BTW, if you can't use your own hair, use somebody else's. Maybe you can make new friends this way ;) No, seriously, I have the same problem, so I just use my girlfriend's hair that I steal out of her hair brush.

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Yes, I use the thumb test, and I agree that it takes time to learn. The sound varies too much between blades, so I find the touch much more accurate. You can practice with a fresh single eedge razor to mget a feel for sharpness. And it's not just that the razor grabs. It will grab before it's keen. When the edge is really sharp the grab is extreme when you brush across thedge very lightly, and you can feel an edge. You can feel that with the single edge blade, but the best way is through actual honing and testing. You can feel the edge forming in successive tests.

Everyone in my family is fair haired, so it wouldn't help to use someone else's hair. My wife's is finer than mine.

Always interesting read, your posts, Joe.

I know how everybody always says that the best test is the actual shave... the only problem is that my skin doesn't like it when I don't give it one day rest - which can delay the whole hone/test cylce quite a bit. That's why I'm really interested in alternative sharpness tests.

What do you do to detect a wire edge ?

Redwoood

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Originally Posted by Redwoood

Always interesting read, your posts, Joe.

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Thank you.

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I know how everybody always says that the best test is the actual shave... the only problem is that my skin doesn't like it when I don't give it one day rest - which can delay the whole hone/test cylce quite a bit. That's why I'm really interested in alternative sharpness tests.

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My problem is that it's just too inconvenient to keep jumping back and forth between honing and shaving. I also feel the need to make some effort to prep my face before trying to shave, or I may not be judging the razor fairly. So, I needed a highly reliable test to tell me when to try to shave. Mine works 90-95% of the time. That is, I don't have to go back and shave again that percentage of the time.

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What do you do to detect a wire edge ?

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LEt me clarify what my test is. It's actually a combination of the thumbnail test and the thumb test that I adapted to my needs. You can find a description of the combined test in a PDF file in my gallery.

You'll find a detailed discussion of the thumbnail and thumb tests at classicshaving.com, in the "how to .... and why" section under stropping and honing. I suggest you read those sections to understand the way the two tests work. Traditionally, the thumbnail test is done while you hone to tel you when to get off the hone, then you never do it again. You go to the strop next, and you do the thumb test to decide when the razor is ready to try a shave.

My modification was to use the thumbnail test on the 4K or medium hone to tell you when you have a good edge. You then move on to the 8K or fine hone and use the thumb test to track your progress. When the 8K stops showing improvement, you move on to the next finer grit, say a 12K or pasted strop. You use that until improvement stops, then you move to a finer grit. You use as many levels as you need to get the edge you want. So, I combine the two tests.

Since you can't use the thumbnail test after you've moved on to the thumb (it will dull the edge at that stage), you use the thumb test to evaluate a razor when you first pick it up. If the razor shows little grab in the thumb test, you drop back to the thumbnail test, until you pass it.

A wire edge is a defect in the edge (like a chip, or a total lack of sharpness), not a sharpness problem, so it's detected with the thumbnail test, after the razor fails the thumb test. I consider a sharpness problem a lackof sufficient sharpness in a well formed edge (so, a totally dull edge, as reflected by the thubnail test is an edge that needs to be created, not one that needs to be refined). You can recognize the wire edge because the edge won't draw smoothly across the thumbnail, but gives a halting, grating sensation. When you read about and work with the thumbnail test for a while, you will learn to recognize all the sensations that are described.

The thumbnail test should be used to qualify the edge first, regardless of which sharpness test (e.g. HHT, thumb etc.) you use. In other words, you need to know you have a nice unchipped, wire-free edge before you start polishing and testing for sharpness. I don't know of any other test that can detect all the edge defects. For example, if the edge shaves poorly, I don't know a more definitive way to determine if it's just dull or a wire edge or a chip(s). In the thumbnail test each of these faults has a distinct sensory characteristic.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

A wire edge is a defect in the edge (like a chip, or a total lack of sharpness), not a sharpness problem, so it's detected with the thumbnail test, after the razor

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Maybe I didn't use the right terminology. I meant how do you detect an overhoned edge before the shave, one that is so thin that it will feel very sharp to HHT and (I assume) thumb test, but that will dull very quickly during the shave because the burr folds over.

Despite the silly title that is under my name by now, I'm about as far away from being a honemeister as I am from winning olympic gold in synchronized swimming. And I'm not quite sure which of the two would be easier for me to reach ;)

Redwoood

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Originally Posted by Redwoood

Maybe I didn't use the right terminology. I meant how do you detect an overhoned edge before the shave, one that is so thin that it will feel very sharp to HHT and (I assume) thumb test, but that will dull very quickly during the shave because the burr folds over.

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The wire edge is the lower extreme of a weak edge, and the only one you can detect easily. The super sharp edge is at the other upper extreme of the weak edge. It seems normal , but requires more frequent refreshing than your regular keen edge. Some (like me) may even prefer it if they don't mind the frequent refreshing.

So, you can see how difficult a question you asked. Like beauty, a week edge is in the eye of the beholder. What I like may be too weak for a guy with a tougher beard. It might not last through his shave. So, we can all agree that a wire edge is bad, and we know how to detect it, but the weakness of the edge you select is a matter of personal choice. I use "weakness", because in the spectrum of sharp edges the razor definitely falls at the weak end, but it also sports the keenest edge.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time. I say "might" because it was not unusual to see an old time barber strop a razor in the middle of a shave. So, he would only go so far in avoiding a weak edge. There was a point where he had to accept it in order to get the edge keen enough for comfortable shaving. Sometimes I would even see the barber sneak a few swipes on a little hone he carried in his pocket.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

gher beard.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

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Now I am confused about all of this. Are you saying the razor should hold a keen edge through out multiple passes, but you need to hone a razor every third to fifth shave? I would think it would be better for the razor to strop it a few times extra during a shave than hone it so often, even if for only a few swipes. My first razor that I got from a member lasted months before it ever saw a hone from me. I now as many can not leave well enough alone, but just wanted to have this clarified so people don't think they have to hone that often.

Glen

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

gher beard.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

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Now I am confused about all of this. Are you saying the razor should hold a keen edge through out multiple passes, but you need to hone a razor every third to fifth shave? I would think it would be better for the razor to strop it a few times extra during a shave than hone it so often, even if for only a few swipes. My first razor that I got from a member lasted months before it ever saw a hone from me. I now as many can not leave well enough alone, but just wanted to have this clarified so people don't think they have to hone that often.

Glen

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

gher beard.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

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Now I am confused about all of this. Are you saying the razor should hold a keen edge through out multiple passes, but you need to hone a razor every third to fifth shave? I would think it would be better for the razor to strop it a few times extra during a shave than hone it so often, even if for only a few swipes. My first razor that I got from a member lasted months before it ever saw a hone from me. I now as many can not leave well enough alone, but just wanted to have this clarified so people don't think they have to hone that often.

Glen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

gher beard.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

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Now I am confused about all of this. Are you saying the razor should hold a keen edge through out multiple passes, but you need to hone a razor every third to fifth shave? I would think it would be better for the razor to strop it a few times extra during a shave than hone it so often, even if for only a few swipes. My first razor that I got from a member lasted months before it ever saw a hone from me. I now as many can not leave well enough alone, but just wanted to have this clarified so people don't think they have to hone that often.

Glen

sorry for the multiples. the screen went blank and I tried several times... It won't let me delete them either!

Glen