First (and second) hone report

Got the Norton kit from SRD yesterday and attempted to hone up a flea market find that I recently polished up. I inspected the bald before starting and realized that it had a spot about 1/3 of the way out from the heel that seemed to have a little wider bevel than the rest of the blade and that the bevel on the opposite side was much thinner across the length of the whole balde. So I ignored all that and honed it anyway. After a few passes on the 1k, I got a decent TNT, so I moved to the 4k/8k and did the standard pyramid as posted in the Wiki. After the 4k, I wasn't getting much arm hair shaving ability...more like scraping. But I again, I moved on. Long story short, my final results were rather disappointing.

So I did a little more research, watched some of Glen and Lynn's videos and retried my hand at it. I took the blad all the way back to the 220 stone to try to remove the "high spot" and even out the width of the bevels. I did about 40 circles on each side with a fair amount of pressure. The blad was more even as were the two bevels.

Then, on to the 1k with similar circles, a few back strokes and then 25 really good X strokes. Right away I could feel a difference and could cut (NOT shave) some of my arm hair. TNT was consistant across the blade.

I went to the 4k/8k, again following the pyramid. After the first 25 laps on the 4k I was popping arm hairs off. I really tried to focus on the idea of polishing at this point with very light strokes. Two hands actually seemed to make it easier to apply less pressure, pushing the bald forward rather than down.

I did the whole pyramid with tape on, then pulled the tape and did 5 strokes on on the 8k. I followed this with 25 on the 1mic diamond spray and 25 on the .5 CrO2 strop. Now the arm hairs were really popping. I don't get a good HHT, but can cut them eventually. I did dry shave a couple of spots on my face and there was little or no pulling. Don't get me wrong...it is an order of magnitude less sharp than what I got from Lynn on my first Dovo. But I took a $25 razor, cleaned it up, and made it "shave ready." Or at least, I think I did. Pretty cool.

Can't wait to strop it up and shave tomorrow morning.

--David

Very cool. A little patience and persistence goes a long way. Congrats on your success :)

Can't wait to hear about the shave!

I can't help wondering if the 5 laps on the 8K after taking the tape off missed the edge because of the resulting decrease in angle.

Ace/David,

Yea, it's a possible consideration.

David,

Well done. Technically, many of my blades sit right where you are probably at, an order of magnatude below a Lynn Abrams honed razor, and below a Glen honed razor, and well, BigSpendur and JimmyHad . . . well, you get the idea. Anyway, they shave great.

But, also consider what would happen if you started applying as much thought, research, and practice into stropping . . .

Also, give some consideration to continuing to learning to hone with one hand. I'm pretty sure that many of the blades we see with bad spine wear come from people who hone with two hands and figured that it wouldn't cause a problem, but 10-20 years later you've got a real problem developing on your spines. It sounds like you weren't pushing into the blade though, good on ya for that.

I probably have no business making comments about what should be done on an 8K or 12K stone because my problem is that I can't there without screwing the blade up in the process.

I can set a bevel, but the problem is that I make a mess of the blade in the process. I can identify a proper bevel by way of the TNT and the appearance of the edge under 30X.
The problem is that my attempt to get rid of the last ugly edge I created results in my breadknifing the edge to get rid of the tall bevel sides I created in the last attempt. Those are the result of uneven and too much pressure, the blade flexing in the process. Instead of a neat, small bevel, I get one that looks like it goes way up the blade. I know that is wrong because I have blades honed by the best. Of course, I don't get near my hones with them. I may be stupid, but I ain't crazy.

Example: I spent the last two evenings, a total of at least 8 hours, setting a bevel. I had breadknifed the edge to get rid of the tall bevels I had created. But the result was that using little or no pressure, even on 80, then 220 grit took FOREVER to get even close to a bevel. By the time I got close, I was literally worn out. My shoulder hurt (surgery ten years ago) and my hand was cramping. As this all went on and on, my accuracy with my stroke decreased and once again I started to apply pressure because I was getting nowhere. Once again I wound up with a bevel but an extremely ugly one. I know what a good bevel should look like. I just cannot for the life of me produce one. I believe that my knowledge and technique would get me a good edge if only I could set a bevel without doing what I've been doing. If I could get to my 4K stone in good shape, I think I could finish the job, but I can't get there without producing a truly ugly bevel. So what am I going to do about it?

1. I'm done breadknifing. The next time I screw up a practice razor, it goes in the trash. I'm done bringing
razors back from breadknifing to a bevel. I have better ways to spend 8 hours making my arm hurt.

2. I have purchased and am waiting for some razors that don't need major work to get sharp (I don't even DARE say shave ready at this point.) They look like they need only a little work at 1K to get a bevel.

3. I'm also SO done at 80 grit. I learned this: if you're at 80 grit, you're already lost.

4. I'm provisionally staying with tape in my attempt to get short bevels. You would not believe what 80 grit will do to the spine of a razor without tape.

5. If I made any typos, I'm sorry but pain pills are tough on my typing. :)

Thanks for the input. Ace, I had the same thought about pulling the tape.

This razor is a little odd in that the size of the bevel is different on each side. I think the blade has a micro warp. It seems OK when honing the side with the more "normal" width bevel. When honing the side with the skinnier bevel it seems like the toe and heal stick up off the bevel about 1/64". In other words, I can see it but I don't think I can take a picture of it. I've looked at through a loupe (acutally a piece off of some old opera glasses) and the bevels look totally different.

I just got the Wosty I've been waiting for and it is similar shape to what this razor was when it showed up. I'm going to clean it up this weekend and take a shot at honing it and see if my results are differnt. Then I'll go back and rework the KHS. It's a very cool little razor with bolsters. It looks like it was never used. I may have to send it to Glen and see if he can work with it.

More to follow...

--David

Can you post a photo of both bevel sides? I think you're saying one side is wider than the other? If so, this happens, its not going to ruin the edge if its what I'm thinking of.

If the heel and toe are off the hone when you strok then you need to torque (no force!) the blade on a tiny level while x stroking and keeping the blade on the hone to get the whole edge evenly. Hope that helps you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

Can you post a photo of both bevel sides? I think you're saying one side is wider than the other? If so, this happens, its not going to ruin the edge if its what I'm thinking of.

.

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Very nice advice. Don't worry about the hone wear on the spine of the blade. what is important is your cutting edge.
gl

Here is a photo (if I pull this off) of my Army Special with the "bevel" next to a Puma 52 with what appears to me to be a far more correct and attractive bevel. The length of the side of the bevel on the Army Special is many times the height of the bevel on the Puma, which was done by a honemeister on this forum. I shaved with the Army Special this morning, and it shaved like all my honing attempts have: lousy. It cut a few hairs then gave up the ghost. I'm guessing that I have made the steel at the edge too thin to stand up to whiskers. I haven't shaved with the Puma yet, but it is looking more attractive all the time.

ace,

The dimension of the bevel is a function of edge thickness: the thicker the blade is at the edge, the longer, higher, more obvious the bevel will be. So long as the bevel on on side meets the bevel from the other side at this mini-micro invisible edge and with some various fine grit polishing, you will have your razor's edge. Old wedges had long bevels and seem to have shaved just fine. It's just there is more material to remove to get to that point with a thicker razor and it takes longer to achieve desired sharpness.

:beer2:

I'll try to get a shot of it tonight. I think I might be able to capture both the bevel difference and the slight warp. Thanks for the advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce

ace,

The dimension of the bevel is a function of edge thickness: the thicker the blade is at the edge, the longer, higher, more obvious the bevel will be. So long as the bevel on on side meets the bevel from the other side at this mini-micro invisible edge and with some various fine grit polishing, you will have your razor's edge. Old wedges had long bevels and seem to have shaved just fine. It's just there is more material to remove to get to that point with a thicker razor and it takes longer to achieve desired sharpness.

:beer2:

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I think the obviousness of my bevel here is not a function of the thickness of steel at the edge, but a result of lousy honing, way too much pressure. It took me literally 8 hours of honing on 220, and I think I just tired of it and used too much pressure just to get done with it.
That is certainly a problem that I created, and I know that the breadknifing was the cause of it. I breadknifed it to get rid of the previous unsightly bevel, and ironically I created another one in the process. The result, I think, was an edge that was too thin, and one pass WTG wore it down to the point where it wouldn't cut hair. All I can do is await another practice blade (on the way) that I can make a honing attempt with without breadknifing it. Thanks for your comment.

In the first picture you can see a normal (to my eyes) bevel. In the second, it's almost nonexistent except for the toe.

So, big deal or no? Something I should be able to fix with proper technique?

This may be an indication that my hones aren't perfectly lapped (I used the Norton leveling stone, but a DMT may be in my future) or proof that the tiny warp I mentioned exists. I'm not sure if you can see it, but the edge is slightly wider in the middle on the side with a wedge. One thought I had...less than perfect technique should prevent a flaw from showing up perfectly, right? Think about it.

I got the latest victim...er, restore candiate in the mail and I'm going to give it a try this weeken and see what I get.

--David

I'm hardly the one to give you advice, but that won't stop me. As for whether the following statement is true, I'm not sure.

"less than perfect technique should prevent a flaw from showing up perfectly, right? Think about it."

I think actually honing may be easier than figuring this out. Certainly, the concept of a flaw showing up perfectly is a bit odd, but I think I know what you are getting at. Imperfect technique will generate flaws perhaps that cover up other flaws, that much I know and have proved it. But enough of word games, as much as I enjoy them. Your questions, then:

I think I see a warp in the top photo, not so sure in the second, but that is how my blade was. It was much more obvious on one side.

I think you can put that blade right if the warp is not too severe. If not, what you will have is a really weird steak knife, but that is the only meat I would put it next to.

Have fun with it. I'm looking for some victims too.