Printable View
Hi all, I have this knife here: HELP??? QUEEN #25? - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB I think the steel is 440C. I've read that some good razors are made from this steel. I want to sharpen it so I can shave with it. The problem is, it is not hollow ground. Any tips on how to properly sharpen it for shaving? Can it be done? Thanks.
For starters, don't buy those junk razors you linked to in your first post.
Some men shave with a straight razor maybe even a DE. Others prefer using a rock and I've seen vids of men shaving with a pocket knife. Best thing I can tell you is, don't do it. It might be great for showing off but you would be better off getting a real straight from someone in the classifieds.
Of course, there just might be someone out there that thinks shaving with a pocket knife is the bees knees.
Many of the razors to avoid (Logistics linked to the list in another thread of yours) advertise that they are made from 440c steel. Now, I don't know anything about steel or heat treatement or anything like that. What I do know is that I have never seen a razor that can be bought for $10 or less that will hone well, take a great edge, and deliver a great shave. On top of that, the item you have linked to in your post is not a straight razor; that is a pocket knife. So I highly doubt it will take a shaving edge.
If you are interested in straight razors for shaving, I would suggest reading through our Beginner's Guide here Straight Razor Place Wiki:Books/Beginners Guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki and then asking questions about things in there that you don't understand.
If you would prefer some more one on one help, please feel free to drop me a Private Message (click my name to the left, and choose "Send a private message to holli4pirating") and I'll answer any questions as best I can or refer you to someone else who I think could do a better job.
Dylan
I've just read that some good brand name razors are made from this same 440C steel, so in theory this pocket knife should be able to take the same edge. Of course, I don't know if they apply the same heat treatment to pocket knives as they do to razors, but I would think it would be pretty close as they would try and get the most out of the steel. But they might want it less brittle for a knife.
How did people shave 200-300-400 years ago, before all this fancy refined stuff came around? I bet they didn't spend 200+ dollars for a setup.
Thanks.
It seems there are a lot of unknowns. Is 440c good steel for razors as a base? What HT does it take to get 440c there, if it can be done? Is that 440c steel that the razor is made from? What HT does it have?
After all that is said and done, it is still a knife, not a razor, so it is not designed to be shaved with. That doesn't mean you can't shave with a knife, much like you can use a wrench as a hammer.
The question as to how people shaved 200-300 years ago is largely unknown, though I'm not sure how that pertains to this thread.
+1 on previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
This is a going up the down stair case type of question.
You will be hard put to get a quality razor edge on it.
You might get it sharp enough to shave with
depending on your whiskers.
60HRc is possible but it is unlikely that is the hardness
of this folder. Hardness is only part of what it takes to
make an edge but low 60s is common in razors
and uncommon in pocket knives.
The most difficult part you will find is setting
and maintaining the low angle bevel. By design
straight razors have a sharpening/ honing guide built
into the design. Many knife sharpeners use guides
and if you can find one that gives you the 15 degrees
we commonly expect and hold it with precision
you have a chance.
The next part is the quality of hones used.
Most razor folk hone with finer than a 8000
grit finish hone while most knife folk stop at 600 grit.
Cr carbide content in 440C can make a good slicer
but bad razor depending on the grain size. What make
a good knife slice is not what a shaver's face
wants run over it.
Some individuals can sharpen a pocket knife to
"razor sharp" but this is a skill on the order of
running five snooker tables in a row. Some can
most cannot.
Low precision angle, fine hone, light touch...
Henckels Friodur were (are?) made of 440C. I think they are supposed to be good razors.
Heat treatment and the machining are the unknowns that might make a knife unsuitable for shaving.
There is nothing wrong with wanting finer things in life. After all, that is the driving force behind progress. I just think that it is possible to get a satisfactory shave with far less than what many people deem necessary. And it is good to go back to the basics every now and again.
I hope no one spent $200 on a razor 300 years ago. That would be a fortune when adjusted for inflation.
I will let you in on a secret,you do not need to spend $200 for a setup today either. Just don't tell any one that I told you.
I would imagine people had similiar setups 200-300 years ago. No hollow ground razors, but razors nonetheless.
It sounds like your heart is set on shaving with a pocket knife, so go for it .
I don't have to shave with a knife, I just want to know if it's doable. And if not, why.
And I would not attempt to shave with a kitchen knife made of some junk stainless steel. But 440C should be suitable for razors, if properly treated.
So then, less than 60 Rockwell is no good for razors?
I have no idea, but here is a video of someone shaving with a paring knife.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...ing-knife.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
Not no good. Perhaps less good.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
If the grain is fine and the edge smooth you
might have to strop it half way through
to finish the other side of your face.
Try it....
The knife is not designed for shaving it is designed for cutting, Just like a SR is designed for shaving and not cutting...
The heat teat and grind are secondary to the design of the blade... They are both capable of doing the other's job just not as well
Yes you can get it sharp enough to cut hair, there are people that shave with axes too,and you can scrape it down your face and Video it and look cool... but about 20 minutes later yer going to realize why we kept telling you it was a bad idea...
As to how??? we don't really have any ideas for you beyond how to sharpen a knife anyway, then strop the crap outta it and go for it...
I hope that answers your questions...
You all are probably right in that this knife would make a poor shaver. I would just like to know why. It's got the same steel as some quality razors, at least nominally. Which parameters of the knife blade design make it unusable for shaving? There are only so many. Any expert metallurgists on here? :)
I think so far we possibly have heat treatment/hardness and steel grain as obstacles.
As to the geometry of the blade, aren't the "full wedge" razors pretty much the same thing as a knife?
The blade I have has an overall angle of about 7 degrees. By the time I put a bevel on it, I will probably have something like 20 degrees. Is it too blunt of an angle for shaving?
Or should I just lay it down flat on a stone and not have a bevel? It would be a LOT of grinding trying to get an edge on it that way!
I don't have any decent hones yet, but I am looking to buy some.
Thanks.
I think there is a difference in the finished steel. Razors seem to be more brittle than knives. Lots of people have chipped razors just by tapping them on the faucet while rinsing. I've never chipped a knife while washing it.
That said, if it's sharpened as well as a razor, there is probably nothing other than a lack of a tang designed for a shave friendly grip that would prevent it from shaving well.
There is also nothing that prevents a razor from slicing tomatoes well.
In both cases there are tools that are actually designed for the job.
Finally, if you're really interested in the metallurgy you could try posting a question in "the forge" which is a sub-forum of the workshop.
Do you want to know why people don't shave with knives, or do you want to use your knife to shave. This last post of yours is confusing me.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
No matter the grind of a razor, the spine is used to set the bevel angle. Knives don't have a spine like that. So right there, their geometries are different. I believe this is also one reason why you cannot get the edge on a knife to the same level as a razor (I mean, besides the base steel and the HT) - you need the bevel angle to be dead on exact for EVERY stroke to form a shaving quality edge.
I would also say again, that the steel itself, not to mention the HT, is questionable. I haven't seen anyone say that 440c is the same steel used in any razors, and I wouldn't really trust the maker of a cheap knife to be totally upfront about what steel they use. And then, of course, is the question about the HT.
I really think that trying to get that knife to shave would yield a rather poor shave and cost you A LOT of time. If you are just learning to hone (regardless of any experience you may have sharpening knives or anything else), the amount of time you'll likely spend goes way up. Unless you are really just trying to satisfy your curiosity about shaving with a knife, why spend the time?
If you really want to know about the steel, I would say post in the forge section. Or find someone who really knows steel and knows at least a fair bit about razors and just send them the knife. It couldn't have been expensive. They can give you some insight into the steel. Or just try honing the thing to a shaving edge yourself in order to learn if it can be done. Otherwise, this thread is entirely speculation.
Bingo....Quote:
Originally Posted by HNSB
This is an astute observation!
Regarding the fragile nature of a razor
in contrast to the tough nature of a
knife.
According to this, Henckels Friodur Inox were made of 440C.
Vintage Straight Razors - J.A. Henckels - Friodur - Inox No Stain - 7/8 - Full Hollow - Cocobolo scales
Nope, most knives are a convex grind. There are no convex grind razors. I know there are hollow ground knives but they are not hollow all the way to the spine like a razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
A full wedge is just that, a full wedge, but many are simply 1/4 hollows that have been worn flat.
Interesting, and something I was unaware of. So that leaves the question of the HT.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
You should be banned! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfast
But since the cat is out of the bag, good razors at an affordable price can be found either in the classifieds or the vendors here at SRP. Happy hunting and welcome to the brotherhood!
You have junk stainless steel kitchen knives? Honestly, with what my wife spent on her kitchen knives, I'd be willing to try and shave with them after they were honed out. As others have said, it doesn't have to cost a fortune. I'm in maybe $60 bucks. A good, well loved razor, previously owned razor for $38 from whipped dog. Some soap and a brush for another $15, and a poor man's strop for $19 from the same place as the razor. I could have gone cheaper on the soap and brush, but I "splurged" and went for an Omega ($11 instead of 8 for some other brand) and soap that's a little nicer than the VDH. I also have a shavette that was given to me (and I love) which could be picked up instead of the razor for about $30-25.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave