From 6000 to stropping?

I need to buy some honing stones for a straight razor.
It seems there is a lot of difference in price between 6K and 8K grits. Is 8K really necessary?
Can I go 6K -> Clean strop ?
Or 6K -> Pasted strop -> Clean strop ?

I was thinking of buying this stone:
Buy King Ice Bear 6000 Grit Waterstone at Woodcraft.com

And this paste:
Buy Green Chrome Oxide Compound, 6 oz. at Woodcraft.com
They don't provide the micron size for this paste, or I have not found it.

What would be a good stone to go before 6K ?

Thanks.

How can I correct a spelling error in the subject line?

I have the King 1000/6000 hone and a Chinese natural hone that I picked up from Woodcraft. I can reset bevels and get a razor shave ready for myself with little problems ( unless it is a wedge). If you are looking for something to just clean up the edge and not really restore the edge I would go with either a barbers hone or the Chinese natural. If you are looking to take a ebay special and get it shave ready you will want a 1000 to set the bevel and then progress from there.. after a year with the 1000/6000 I am looking to upgrade as I have found the Kings to dish pretty quickly so I have to flatten them quite often but for personal use and starting out they are not bad.

Is this the natural stone you have?
Buy Natural Water Stone, 8" x 2-3/4" x 1-1/4" at Woodcraft.com

Is this the combination 1000/6000 stone?
2000242
Is 2" wide enough for you?

I will probably only use the stone for maintenance.

I have one that is about 800 grit, I am guessing. I can probably use it to set a bevel if I ever need it.

I guess what is comes down to, can I get away with spending $35 on a 6000, or do I need to spend $80-90 on a finer stone?

I am not counting the cost of the paste as I was going to get it anyway for other projects. Would not this paste (or some other paste if this one is not adequate) be "a finisher" after 6000?

Thanks.

1k -> 6k is a pretty big jump. I am sure you can make it work with lots of experimenting.

I have never used this setup, so I have no idea what to tell you to expect.

Has anyone done 6K -> paste -> strop ?

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Originally Posted by time2shave

I guess what is comes down to, can I get away with spending $35 on a 6000, or do I need to spend $80-90 on a finer stone?

I guess you could "get away" with it, but you will not get as comfortable of a shave. Remember...you normally get what you pay for. If you are just looking for a cheap way out & not wanting to learn to hone, send your razor to a honemeister in the classified's & maintain the edge on a .5 micron strop & regular strop. Glen, gssixgun, did a test that he finally tired of after six months...razor's edge was maintained that long & could potentially go on forever.

I am not counting the cost of the paste as I was going to get it anyway for other projects. Would not this paste (or some other paste if this one is not adequate) be "a finisher" after 6000?

I personally only use .5 diamond, but that is probably more of a preference thing. I've tried other stuff and find the diamond less messy and more consistent. A paste is NOT a finisher, a stone is.

Thanks.

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Your welcomed!
Scott

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Originally Posted by time2shave

Has anyone done 6K -> paste -> strop ?

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That is a big leap! Technically you can shave off of a 4k. Ain't gonna be comfortable, won't be BBS, but it can be done.

The most basic, easiest, and consistent method (IMMHO) would be Norton 1k, 4k, 8k, Your favorite 12k and then strop.

It's all freestyle from there.

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Originally Posted by time2shave

I guess what is comes down to, can I get away with spending $35 on a 6000, or do I need to spend $80-90 on a finer stone?

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If money is your motivation for not getting a finishing stone, perhaps consider a chinese waterstone, they are much cheaper than this. (just checked ebay, seems you can get them for usd 24 including shipping).
I got one of those myself, it is my standard finishing hone and has served me well.

Yes, I am very much interested in learning how to hone. I just would like to find a more affordable way to do it.

So, if paste is not a finisher, what is it for?

If I buy a brand new razor, like a Dovo, should I ever need anything coarser than 6K (provided I don't nick it) ?

I don't mind experimenting up front. I am using a double edge right now and am not in a very big rush to switch to a straight razor.
And I don't mind using some extra elbow grease. :)

Thanks.

If you are just worried about maintaining your new Dovo, buy a barber hone to maintain it to infinity and beyond.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by time2shave

Yes, I am very much interested in learning how to hone. I just would like to find a more affordable way to do it.

So, if paste is not a finisher, what is it for?

If I buy a brand new razor, like a Dovo, should I ever need anything coarser than 6K (provided I don't nick it) ?

I don't mind experimenting up front. I am using a double edge right now and am not in a very big rush to switch to a straight razor.
And I don't mind using some extra elbow grease. :)

Thanks.

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What exactly is a barber hone (other than the fact that barbers use it)?

Would this work as a finisher?
Buy Natural Water Stone, 8" x 2-3/4" x 1-1/4" at Woodcraft.com
Would I need to lap it first?

Thanks.

Read this.... it will change your world.

What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Quote:

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Originally Posted by time2shave

I don't mind experimenting up front. I am using a double edge right now and am not in a very big rush to switch to a straight razor.
And I don't mind using some extra elbow grease. :)

Thanks.

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You can't "experiment" when you don't know what the end result should be. Second, you can't effectively hone if you don't shave with a straight. Buy a shave ready straight from SRD and a barber hone as mentioned above. Once you have learned to shave and maintain the razor, then, and only then, should you delve into honing.

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Originally Posted by time2shave

Has anyone done 6K -> paste -> strop ?

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I have and i cant recommend it, I use 1000/6000 king and its not to big jump, with slurry, then i finish on a vintage thuringian. I can Imagen a chines waterstone can do the work with slurry to.

I know the feel of a good straight razor on my skin from a barber shop. I think I can attempt to recreate that.

We try to help and you just argue...I quit. :banghead:

When you are ready to listen please feel free to contact me anytime & I will help you any way that I can.

This was may way:

First i got a shave ready dovo that i was shaving with for year and maintaining the edge with a pasted strop. When i have learned all the stuff like stropping, prep building lather an so on.

Then my girlfriends dad gave me a set of kings, i wanted nortons but the old man was trying his best.

I picked up a filharmonica from a fleemarket for 5€ that i did send to Miller strop shop UK, that he fixed up for me. This knife i only have as a reference edge. And in returning post he did send me a vintage thuringian.

I have no problem to get a bbs from 1000 -> 6000 -> finisher stone.

What i have read about C12k it would be possible to use that with manh laps and good results.

You did help a lot. I am just trying to tailor this process to my requirements and schedule.

I learn a lot by experimenting and research. We are all different. As they say, there is more than one way to shave a cat. :)

I appreciate your help.

PS: the CrOx from Woodcraft is NOT pure it is more for polishing metal on a buffer than honing we all use the pure stuff for honing..
The Woodcraft has FeOx at an unknown grit in there, we use the .50 CrOx SRD has it and Japanblades IIRC

The King stones are fine, and you can do what you want with them 1k -6k -CrOx (the good stuff) Linen - Leather - Shave

You have to understand that it is not a system that we would recommend, nor any of us really use, but yes it will shave...

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Originally Posted by time2shave

How can I correct a spelling error in the subject line?

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You can't only Mods can

Done !!!

What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki
This was an excellent article. But it still did not answer, what is the grit of the barber hone? How is it different from a regular finishing stone? Is it a natural stone? Why is it in a separate category? Where do I get it?

If I had me a 12K Chinese stone as a finisher and used slurry from a rubbing stone when I needed to take off a little extra, would that make a fair system for light duty work?
Buy Natural Water Stone, 8" x 2-3/4" x 1-1/4" at Woodcraft.com

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by time2shave

What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki
This was an excellent article. But it still did not answer, what is the grit of the barber hone? How is it different from a regular finishing stone? Is it a natural stone? Why is it in a separate category? Where do I get it?

If I had me a 12K Chinese stone as a finisher and used slurry from a rubbing stone when I needed to take off a little extra, would that make a fair system for light duty work?
Buy Natural Water Stone, 8" x 2-3/4" x 1-1/4" at Woodcraft.com

Thanks.

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There isn't an exact grit rating on the various barber hones out there, and they are not made any more. Made as in not natural stones:)
An approximation based on what I have read of feedback from the users of them would be somewhere between 8k and 12K. Don't get all locked up in that though, it really isn't important. It will refresh an edge slightly off, and that's all one needs to know IMHO :)

The place to find them would be eBay, the classifieds on here or various other places, like antique stores, garage sales and the like.
Swaty would be one brand to look for, there are several others.
Just search for the phrase barber hone (barber's hone)

As to the difference between a barber hone and a finisher, there principally aren't any. You can use any artificial or natural hone of a fine enough grit to touch up your razor when it starts to drop a little in keenness. exactly like a barber's hone.

hope that helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by time2shave

What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki
This was an excellent article. But it still did not answer, what is the grit of the barber hone? How is it different from a regular finishing stone? Is it a natural stone? Why is it in a separate category? Where do I get it?

If I had me a 12K Chinese stone as a finisher and used slurry from a rubbing stone when I needed to take off a little extra, would that make a fair system for light duty work?
Buy Natural Water Stone, 8" x 2-3/4" x 1-1/4" at Woodcraft.com

Thanks.

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You are jumping all over the place but Yes...

There is very little to this all, too just "Shave"... if that is all you want to achieve is a shaving edge, then this is very easy... We take it to different levels here, this is why you are getting so many different answers...

The "grit" equivalent on a Barber's hone is not so easy to nail down, you will hear many different guesses anywhere from 6k to 12k
I personally after lapping literally 100's of them doubt anything above an 8k equivalent.. but that is JMHO...

Now what they do have is a ton of cutting power, which is why they are different from a normal finisher (using slurry from your finisher would accomplish much the same by increasing the cutting power)..

Imagine the Naniwa stones, look at the Super Stone compared to the Chosera both are 1k but the Chosera has more grit, so it cuts faster, that is sorta what a Barber's Hone does is has more grit so it cuts faster...

I hope that explains it..

Once you start honing this will all fall into a bit more perspective for you...

Yes, you are right, I am jumping around, because I have not yet decided what type of razor I want: brand new, restored "shave ready" or an e-bay special that is not too banged up. Right now I am just trying to determine what is available. My razor will probably determine which hones I end up buying. On the other hand, the hone availability and price might influence my razor selection. So, it's a package deal. Besides, I need to know all this stuff anyway if I am going to switch to a new razor type. Thanks for being patient with me.

So do you think that Chinese stone is all I would need for a razor in good condition, to hone it every few months?

It would not be my first choice as a maintenance hone...

A Barber's Hone would be, as that is exactly what it was designed to do...

Again we are talking degrees here, either would work, so would any stone that is about 6k or higher.... But a Barber's Hone was designed as a maintenance machine :) it is very specialized...

I started with a 1K King & 6K Ice Bear + .6 Flexcut honing compound. It was possible to get a good edge off the 6K - but very difficult for a beginner. Essentially, you just need to make lighter passes to get the 6K to act like an 8K. However, this means that instead of honing with "no pressure, just the weight of your finger holding the blade flat", you need to hone with "hold 1/3-1/2 of the weight of the razor up, so that it has less pressure on the stone". I'd mess up every 8-10 strokes, scrape my edge on the corner of the stone since I couldn't holding the razor flat consistantly while applying negative pressure, and have to start over with a reduced set of strokes on the 1K to take out the microscopic flat where I dinged it.

I'd recommend starting with a 8K and .5 CrOx (real stuff from SRD). You want good honing compound. Crummy stuff has bigger grit in it that leaves a ragged edge on the razor. Some block compounds have so much wax that the compoind starts making hills and valleys as you are stropping...

In terms of size: I've tried just going back and forth without an X-stroke, and have decided that X-strokes are pretty much mandatory if you want the WHOLE edge sharp. So 3" is not really needed. It does need to be wide enough to easily balance the blade on though. 2" is easy too. 1.5 is easy once you have 1/2 an hour of practice. This is a moot point for the Norton or Naniwa stones. They are 3". Since the 4/8 Norton or 3/8 combo stones are much more than an 8K - I'd definitely go that route.

For the .5 CroOx, I started with a 3x12" piece of leather from a craft store that is glued to a flat piece of hardwood. It's not as nice as a hanging strop, but it's a LOT cheaper.

I CroOx the edge weekly to refresh it, the 8K (+ CroOx) every 3rd or 4th time, and the 4K (+8K & CroOx) every 3rd or 4th time I do the 4K. I only go down to the coarse stone if the finer ones didn't make it shave perfectly (ie: the edge still has some roundness). You can use the 4K instead of a 1K to take out dings - it just takes a long time.

ps: I recommend the Naniwa hones. Not having to soak them first allows you to quickly touch up the edge in the morning if it needs it without being late for work :)

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Originally Posted by time2shave

Yes, you are right, I am jumping around, because I have not yet decided what type of razor I want: brand new, restored "shave ready" or an e-bay special that is not too banged up.

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This part is a no-brainer. Start with a shave ready razor (SRD, SRP classifieds, etc). Don't try to learn to hone until you've learned to shave well. If the razor isn't sharp, you'll get non-close shaves and lots of razor burn. And you need to know how to shave to "shave test" the edge to know whether your honing is working. Catch 22, with an easy solution. Buy shave ready, learn to shave 1st, learn to hone later. (Note weekly touch ups on CroOx are "maintenance", so you can start doing that right away :) )

Before shaving, I strop on poly webbing 30 strokes, and then strop on latigo leather 60 strokes. (Don't put paste on your daily use strop, it doesn't come off). I use an X-pattern when stropping since I think the edge is a little bit better - but I recommend starting with the standard back-n-forth (no X) until you are VERY used to flipping the raxor (ie: the 1st month or two) to avoid cutting into the edge of your strop. Some people also rub their strop 30 seconds before stropping to warm the waxes in the leather. I only do this if an edge of the strop feels like it's curling upwards a little bit (it's never anything I can see, but the razor sounds like it's not making contact with the entire surface of the strop).

Each morning when I get up and my hands still have the skin oil on them but haven't gotten dirty yet, I rub my leather strop with the palm of my hand about 50 times to condition & flatten the strop. Every 3 months or so, I wipe the strop down with a damp cloth and rub some glycerin into the surface to deep condition it.

I suspect the barber hones were the finest grit ceramic they could make in the early 1900's. ie: 8 to maybe 10 K. I suspect cheaper ones were 6-7 K, and that's why some people said they worked better with a coating of lather on them to act as a lubricant. (ps: I tried using lather on my 6K. The razor did slide a lot better, and allow a lighter touch. However, the 6K + lather didn't sharpen nearly as fast OR as well (ie: result in as smooth an edge) as the 8K) So maybe some of the cheaper barber hones were 4K's...

pps: Barber hones are no longer made. Swaty is one of the ones most recommended. I think the 8K + Cro Ox strop will work just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by time2shave

I need to buy some honing stones for a straight razor.
It seems there is a lot of difference in price between 6K and 8K grits. Is 8K really necessary?
Can I go 6K -> Clean strop ?
Or 6K -> Pasted strop -> Clean strop ?

I was thinking of buying....
...Woodworking Plans & Tools | Fine Woodworking Project & Supplies at Woodcraft....

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Since you are shopping at woodcraft check the
abrasive film. A package with 15micron,
5micron and 0.3micron is inexpensive and combined with
a flat as heck base will hone a razor.
The 0.3 is a bit harsh but with deliberate
stropping the result will be fine after a shave or
two.

The jumps are a bit large but abrasive films cut fast.

If you have a light hand a 6K hone followed by
canvas then leather will do for many.

I am of the opinion that pasted strops are not "sharpening" aids
they are finishing options. If the edge is not "sharp"
then a pasted strop is a left turn.

Well, I got me an antique. A rusty old IXL by Geo Wostenholm & Son's, Washington Works, Sheffield, England. The picture shows it after I removed lots of rust. Yes, I did make that nick on the end. Bummer. So, what do you think? Is it a fair razor? Would it shave some whiskers? Does it have good steel? I guess I will be investing in better hones now.

Wostenholm are known as a top cutlery maker.

Does it have good steel ? You can tell us when you hone past that rust on the edge :)

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Originally Posted by time2shave

Well, I got me an antique. A rusty old IXL by Geo Wostenholm & Son's, Washington Works, Sheffield, England. The picture shows it after I removed lots of rust. Yes, I did make that nick on the end. Bummer. So, what do you think? Is it a fair razor? Would it shave some whiskers? Does it have good steel? I guess I will be investing in better hones now.

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Do you want an honest assessment????

You bought a ton of trouble there,,,

As the Oz man pointed out already Corrosion on the edge after you sanded,, stop and check for clean steel before you get to far...
Rust worms, or a Swiss cheese edge is a deal killer for shaving

There is a frown or looks that way in the pic.

The toe is worn heavy and uneven.

4/8 blades are a bit of a challenge to hone for newbies "in general"

4/8 blades are a bit of a challenge to strop for newbies "in general"

Thumb notches can put a new twist on stropping for anyone not used too them..

You now have a dinged blade that you caused and have to fix...

It also has a cracked scale that is going to get in the way sooner rather than later...

Want the good news??? It is a Wosty, they are known to be a good quality brand...


Want the PC answer??? ... Wostenholms are great shavers, with a little work that one will be too !!!

Also... Is that a hairline crack radiating upwards from the 'ding' in the toe ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by time2shave

Well, I got me an antique. A rusty old IXL by Geo Wostenholm & Son's, Washington Works, Sheffield, England. The picture shows it after I removed lots of rust. Yes, I did make that nick on the end. Bummer. So, what do you think? Is it a fair razor? Would it shave some whiskers? Does it have good steel? I guess I will be investing in better hones now.

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Just send me Pm i will send you razor which you can use and start shaving with straight razor. As long as you will not hurt the edge it should last at least 3 months with proper honing.
Use that blade for learn how to hone.
gl

Actually, the edge is in good shape, as far as rust goes. Most of the rust was above the edge.

There are no cracks in the blade that I can see. Hopefully the ding is not going to spread. Is it a good idea to grind it out to relieve any stresses? It goes in about 1/16".

The blade measures about 9/16. I think it's been worn down from 5/8.

Where is the toe on it? I am not familiar with the terminology. It does have more wear in the middle than on either end of the blade. Actually the middle measures just under 9/16 and the ends measure just over 9/16. Both the edge AND the spine are bowed inward. Is it going to be a big problem? Was it caused by sharpening the middle more than the ends?
I tried putting a bevel on it today and got a nice even bevel on one side, but the other side is not getting much bevel toward the handle. Might be my technique, I don't know. I didn't spend very much time on the bevel, I was busy with other things. I used a cheap (aluminum oxide ?) stone that I lapped before using. I will have more time to work on it over the weekend.
I've got a shot from a different angle that shows the middle being more narrow.

I don't have much in this razor. I think it will be a good learning project. For me, learning how to bring a razor back from the dead is a lot of fun.

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Originally Posted by time2shave

There are no cracks in the blade that I can see. Hopefully the ding is not going to spread. Is it a good idea to grind it out to relieve any stresses? It goes in about 1/16". Yes it is

It does have more wear in the middle than on either end of the blade. Actually the middle measures just under 9/16 and the ends measure just over 9/16. Both the edge AND the spine are bowed inward. Is it going to be a big problem? Was it caused by sharpening the middle more than the ends?
I tried putting a bevel on it today and got a nice even bevel on one side, but the other side is not getting much bevel toward the handle. Might be my technique, I don't know. I didn't spend very much time on the bevel, I was busy with other things. I used a cheap (aluminum oxide ?) stone that I lapped before using. I will have more time to work on it over the weekend.
I've got a shot from a different angle that shows the middle being more narrow.

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The wear pattern is called a "frown" & sometimes also called a PITA :p
Here's some reading for you that may help:
Honing: Troubleshooting Guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki