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Hi all,
I have this stone progression:
Norton 1K -> Norton 4K -> Norton 8K -> Chinese 12K -> Plain leather strop
What are good sharpness tests for each of these steps? I would like to know when it is time to move on to the next stone, so I don't get a wire edge or have unnecessary wear on the blade/stone.
Thanks.
I would not worry about a wire edge. I have no managed to create one in 2 years and I think Glen had to do 1000 strokes on a 1k to create one.
Do a quick read through this article and see what specific questions you have.
Sharpness tests explained - Straight Razor Place Wiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
That is the true question of honing a straight razor.. There are a multitude of "Tests" as Ben linked you to already, and they help as you gain experience but they are NOT 100% accurate by any means...
As many people are so fond of saying "It ain't rocket science" and they are correct, there is very little science involved, it is mostly feel and that you have to learn...
So in just that one question you went straight to the heart of how to hone a SR :tu but there is no real solid answer ;)
On a practical level, whatever method you use should not take long, since especially when beginning to learn honing, you must apply the test often. I think the thumb pad test (TPT) is best.
The problem with the TPT, and for that matter, most tests is that at the beginning they don't help you much. I can't tell you, "When XYZ happens when testing the blade with your thumb pad, then ..." At the beginning, hone the best you can, and apply the TPT frequently, and at all stages. Don't worry about how it feels on your thumb. Just apply the test and try to remember how it felt.
Occasionally, something good will happen with the edge. Remember, then, how it felt right before that good thing happened.
By applying the TPT often, you will automatically build up a sense of what the blade should feel like at various stages and hones. Then, after the above calibration process, the TPT can truly be termed a test.
Judging from the article, I may be able to use:
1K: Thumb Nail Test. Should I be able to cut arm hair after 1K?
4K: Thumb Pad Test
8K: Hanging Hair Test
12K: Shave Test
I will also be using the Thumb Pad Test across all stages to learn the feel of it.
Just an opinion -- the most useful test for anyone just beginning to hone is the "sitting around the table drinking coffee and honing with people even more blade-crazy than you" test. I learned more in a morning or two with JoeD, Holli, and Lynn than in untold hours by myself. Put out a call for help in your area, or go to a meet.
OK, I'm still a beginner --- but maybe I'm an "advanced" beginner.
Oh, and -- good luck with that hanging hair thing -- I think it's a lot more hair-specific than blade-specific.
I use the TPT on all hones up to about 4K. After that, at least for me, it is of lesser value. After 4K, I depend more on the feel (draw, suction) of the blade on the hone.
As a new honer, you may want to do more reading about the various tests than just the wiki. What's in the wiki is a good start, but many more members have shared their thoughts and opinions across the forum.
For example, here is another thread on the front page of this forum on the same subject - http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ove-4k-8k.html
Just an idea: Maybe someone can supply "standardized hairs" for razor testing. It would take some uncertainty out of it.
I agree, there is nothing like learning from the masters in person.
There is no need for that. You just need to learn and calibrate the test to whatever hair you use. (BTW, this would be true even with standardized hair.) This is true of every test you do, but since the HHT is, for whatever reason, so widely publicized, the variables in it seem to be highlighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
Consider this, having hones and having watched someone hone a razor doesn't mean you can hone well. Having a razor and a hair and having watched someone do the HHT DOESN'T mean you can perform the test and determine what the result means accurately.
IMHO the only true test for me is how the razor feels as I shave with it. I've seen lots of pictures of a hair being dropped on a blade but that does not give me the information that is useable. I say away from the edge of my razor unless my ugly mug has been properly prepared with lather so I can use my razor to shave it.:tu
So, I can use each stone, running various tests every 20 laps or so. Keep using the same stone as long as there is improvement. When there is no more improvement, note the test results for future reference, and proceed to the next stone.
On the next honing session, work each stone to reproduce test results from the previous session.
FWIW, in my brief history of learning to hone, I have made a few observations that may or may not be helpful. First off, there is no "real" answer to any honing question, only what others have had luck/success with, as the variables are too many to count. So what you need to focus on is learning with what you have. Honing falls into 2 parts. First you set the bevel (make your razor sharp), then on the 4/8k range you work on polishing and refining that edge.
Here are a few things that I find helpful when honing.
Setting the bevel is THE MOST important step. depending on your razors condition this may take LOTS of time and LOTS of pressure. Do not be afraid to do this. as the bevel gets dialed in, shave your arm hair frequently, from dull to sharp you will notice it beginning to feel and cut differently, like so:
Dull-
-glides over hair, not really cutting, more like pushing them down, keep honing
-then will glide over hair and catch a few, keep honing
-will cut more hair and start to feel scratchy on your skin, keep honing,
-hairs will cut with less effort,keep honing.
-then hairs will cut easily (but still with SOME effort, they wont just fall down), scratchyness feels less, and the blade will bite a bit in the skin if angled too much.
At this point check the entire lenght of the blade for cutting performance. If it is the same across the board, the bevel is set. use your thumb pad. the blade will bite when pulled accross, and may also feel a bit coarse (this is ok, and important to note for later) move up to 4K.
Towards the end of the 4k, the coarse feeling of the blade will be replaced by a smooth feeling but with the same amount of bite, hairs will cut more easily, and will start coming off in clumps...
at this point its a matter (IMHO) of playing a bit back and forth between the 4K and 8K.
Try to notice how the blade feels on the stones. a few things to look for are, is there suction between the bevel and the stone? (good) Is the blade undercutting the water on the stone (i.e. you can see water coming up from the stone onto the blade with every stroke?) - good!,
Finally, Remember, by the time you get to the 8K, you are not "forcing" the balde to be sharp, you are coaxing it into being sharp, you are gently asking, pleading, beggin it to get sharp. The second you think you can "make" it sharp, you are using too much pressure and are working against yourself. GENTLE, that is the key.
by the time you are done on the 8k, you sould be able to hover the blade above your skin, say 1/16 of an inch, and as you do a stroke (again, with blade NOT touching skin) you will feel hair cutting, and it will almost "jump" over the blade as it is cut-- not every hair will cut, but enough to go, "yeah, it's cutting them".
All of this of course depends on your arm hair.... this is just what I have noticed. Remember to always check that it is acting consistantly across the entire edge of the blade, becasue if it is not, you need to spend more time on a particular hone.
Finally, in the end, it will probably just "click". There is no easy answer, and no amount of reading will substitute good old fashioned time at the stones and cafreful observation of how what you are doing either makes the balde sharper, or more dull.
Best of luck, and with a bit of practice and patience you will be there in no time.
That is along the lines of what I recommend until you have calibrated your tests and know what you are looking for on each hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
What a great post, Cheeks! Seriously. That hit the right points.
This is important too, at all stages of honing. You often hear that the only test is the shave test. I believe that phrase is used too liberally, and without qualification. Depending on how I shave, I might get a great shave with a blade that is only sharp on 1/3 of the blade edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheeks
You need to "check it consistently across the entire edge." And, you can't do that very well with the shave test. Besides, that test is at the end of the process. You need to check the edge all along the edge multiple times in multiple ways.
Not to be argumentative, but I would say if you only shave with 1/3 of the blade, you are only shave testing that 1/3 of the blade.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Just one comment in reply, for this could wander away for the thread topic. But, I've honed quite a few razors sent me by guys who felt that their blades were dull. But, an inch along the heel or more is still quite sharp. But, the portion of the blade they used was dulled.
But, redfaced, I will admit that my "1/3 of the blade good" statement was an exaggeration to make a point. Won't do it again... :)
Aw heck, holli4 said he wouldn't be argumentative, so you're off the hook; argue away.Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryAndro
:beer2:
I like Cheeks post. I think he included many statements that have wandered through my brain, and probably others, while razors were on the hones.
Nice post Cheeks.
Thanks, Cheeks. Your post is one of the more practical summaries I've read so far that's written in language that fellow newbies can appreciate and understand. Thanks for your contribution.
Its easy to write from the perspective of a newb when you are still one yourself :DQuote:
Originally Posted by diyguy
I think maybe the reason so many vets get (understandably) tired of answering the same ol' questions over and over again, or answer in a vague jedi way, is because once you get used to doing something, and you get good at it, it becomes sort of routine, and you become emotionally disconnected from how truly hard it can be to grasp what can seem like simple things. However, when you just had that ah-ha moment a few days ago, the frusteration and confusion is still a fresh and indentifable feeling. You can tap into that "if they just would have explained it this way" mentality. I'm very happy if I can help someone get there just a little quicker than I did, becasue afterall, that is the point of these forums, no? :gl:
I think I have a broken thumb pad. After 2 years everything still feels the same to me after the 4kish stone and I rely on arm hair.
Luckily I only hone my own razors, so i just look like i have mange instead of shaved.
after the 4K, I only use the TPT sparingly while on the 8K, and what I have noticed is that as the blade gets keener (sharper), it starts feeling less sharp, or at least less of what you would intuit as sharp. It feels almost glassy smooth, and the only reason you would know its "sharp" is becasue the bite is more agressive, i.e. the blade will cut deeper with less of the blade.
For example, at the end of the 4K, the balde will feel smooth to the thumb pad, and as you oull it across, you may get 1/2 to 3/4 of the way across the blade and go "who! this might be cutting deep, I better back off!". Once you get through the 8K, the amount of smoothness on the edge of the balde is barely noticeable, however, the bit is more agressive, and with the SLIGHTEST amount of pressure, as you pull the blad will sink in alot quicker, so you may get ony 1/4 of the way across the blade with your thumb pad and think, "wow! this is cutting alot quicker"......
Sorry, it makes sense in my head, but its hard to explain. Just another thing I have noticed. But yes, I agree. once you are past the 4K, I find the thumb pad less helpful, and found myself relying soly on what it did to my arm hair.
Basically, the jist of it is, with all the tests, skin and hair are different from one person to the next, so its hard/impossible to say exactly how a blade will/should act at a certain stage of honing. The best thing is to test the whole edge frequently during the process, in various ways, and TAKE NOTE of the results. If it seems to be getting sharper, you are doing it right. If it seems to be getting more dull, you have made an error somewhere. try to figure out what that error was, backtrack, and try not to do it again.
I agree. I think what we feel as sharp is related to the jagged, striated character of the edge up to around 4K.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheeks
One thing you guys are missing here, a small hint...
A DE razor blade...
When you first are learning to hone and figuring out the sharpness tests this gives you a baseline sharpness test...
You are giving out tips that work for you, and have no clue if these work for him...
To the OP go to Walmart and buy a 5 pack of DE blades and see how the tests work for you on your hair, nails, and thumb pad, this will give you a tangible baseline to help get you where you need to be....
If you are one of those people that say for instance has arm hair that doesn't cut at even shaving sharp levels then you will know this and not grind on the razor chasing something you cant get... :hmmm:
Now go get yer "Hone On" :D:D
+1. good point. I did this as well, and it proved to be an invaluable tool for developing a feel for where it SHOULD be at. Also, I took one of those baldes and intentionally dulled it for a comparison between freshly sharp, and beyond usable dull.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
hehehe intentionally dulled :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Cheeks
yeah right after the TNT :rock: LOL