Just wondering if adding a 2k hone will result in a sharper razor or better edge. What would be the pros and cons of getting a 2k?
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Just wondering if adding a 2k hone will result in a sharper razor or better edge. What would be the pros and cons of getting a 2k?
Smaller jumps means less work per hone. So if you use a 2k, you'll have a bit less work to do on the 4k. But whether or not that will actually save you any time depends. One more hone means one more to lap, one more to prep, one more to put away, etc etc.
Making smaller jumps does not mean a better final edge, unless you are not doing the work on the 4k that needs to be done. Of course, there is such a thing as a jump that is too big, but 1k to 4k seems fine based on the feedback from everyone who does it.
The jump from 1k to 8k and from 2k to 8k are almost equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by brothers
Adding a 5k, 4k or a 3k in the middle might be a better choice.
The reason for a progression of stones is that the finer
hones take a long time to remove the same steel that
a coarser hone removes quickly. It is true that the fast
modern man made hones can change the rules.
In the end your shave tests will tell.
My opinion is that most 1K hones are just not
as even and smooth as the finer 3k,4k,5k hones
that will present the finer 8k hone with a better surface
to finish. So even if you are willing to give it 1000 strokes
it makes sense to split the grits.
Again it is your face that will tell.
I should also note that below 1K comparing hones
from different vendors only by the numbers is
difficult. In the 1K number range they all cut fast enough
that the price and smoothness are more important.
I should double check the obvious. What brand
is your 1K and what brand is your 8k hone. A 1200 hone
is equiv to a 3000 Japanese hone by some
measures.
I recommend a 2K. It comforts me to know the bevel is set,set, set.
I start with a DMT 1200. My TPT is calibrated to a Norton 1K, however, so I always follow the DMT with the Norton. Good TPT, shaving arm hair, I got my bevel.
But then I go to a Nani 2K. Smooth TPT, easily shaves arm hair, and I KNOW the bevel is set, set, set.
Using Shapton Pros for bevel shaping and most times start with 2k first and only start on the 1k when needed. The 2k is a very good feeling hone and in my mind, less hone wear on the razor. Is it something I would have to use before a middle hone? Nope.
Glen did a video on one stone honing. It makes me question if the progression up is even necessary. Set the bevel on 1k, the jump right to 8k.
If you do everything right only the final hone matters. Anything else is just means to get to the end more efficiently.
But if you don't do it right you'll see the effects of the coarse hones.
And of course without specifying the exact 1k, 2k and 4k hones you're talking about, anything that can be said is useless from practical point of view.
Glen also did two other Vids that show a full Shapton run of 1-2-4-6-8-16-30 and a Naniwa run of 1-3-5-8-10-12
So what is the right way??? hehehehe
You have to understand that the magic is hidden in the hands, not in the Hones first off, also the consistency of these honing systems...
The one stone hone system hits at around 70-75%
The Shapton full run, and the Naniwa full run, hit at over 99%
These are just different ways of attaining the same goals, a sharp smooth edge.... :)
I recently added a 2k because I felt I was spending too much time on the 4k. There hasnt been a dramatic difference, but I'm satisfied with it there. My 1k is a naniwa, so I got a 2k shapton to go with the rest of the progression. I was also thinking that 1k to 2k to 4k would be more in keeping with the idea of doubling the grits.
I have had problems integrating it. I know what tests I want passed on the 1k, 4k and 8k, but I have no tests for the 2k, so I just give it x number of laps, depending on the razor. Also, I actually overhoned a razor or two b/c of it.
I'm pretty sure I've read there are benefits to using a single progression of the same type of stones with really small jumps, but I cant vouch for this.
I was wondering when someone would bring up the "double the grits"... shall we call it a theory? Where does that come from, anyway? My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that it came from the US distributor of Shaptons. Does anyone know any different, with regards to its orgin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_S
Regardless of where it comes from, we have very clear evidence that systems that do not double grits (Norton 1k, 4k, 8k or Naniwa 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k with the 3 and 5 being either/or/both) yield extremely high success rates and neither one doubles the grit at each step.
Don't know where it came from, but I see honing as not dissimilar to sanding, where you often double grits.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Yeah, never said the other methods didnt work fine. There are lots of ways to skin a cat. I wanted to try a new cat-skinning technique.
EDIT--To clarify, I was thinking that the doubling would make things go faster. Looking at your post, I get the impression that there has been some debate over grit doubling, but I'm not really aware of any of that. Perhaps I read it sometime back, but I was thinking doubling when polishing or sanding and how that gets faster results.
I just want to post a follow up here to say that this advice is the best I've received, so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcb01
I'm now using a DMT D8E to set the bevel and establish an arm-hair popping edge. I don't leave that hone until I know I could actually shave with that blade if I wanted to, before I go to the Naniwa 2000, followed by the 4/8 Norton, then the Naniwa 12k, and last time I honed my razors (a month ago) I finished them all with an Escher. I have the Shapton glass 16k and 30k and might decide to use them next time. However, I've shaved with all of my SRs now, some more than once, and can happily report very positive results all around.
Go ahead and question it. In fact, I strongly recommend that you do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by newb
I just won't recommend that anyone else do that.
I'm perfectly happy with my 2k, and it took me a lot of effort to get it because it wasn't available in the US when I needed, errr, that is, wanted mine.
You need to understand that there was not actually a 1k to 8k jump
Yes in the stones used there was, but in the method employed there was a slurry progression, and yes that essentially creates the 2-3-4-5-6 k progression too...
The Coticule guys do the exact same thing by using slurry also...
In fact any time you use slurry at all, essentially you are changing the cutting power of the stone so you are adding "grits"
You can do a complete honing progression on pretty much any stone that you can shave off of using the right methods...
BUT
Using a stepped progression such as the Naniwa or the Shapton is still the most consistent method ...
also I just re-read what some of you are saying there and going to a progression such as
Shapton 1k - Naniwa 2k - Norton 4k/8k - Naniwa 12k is not an even progression, it might work I am not saying it won't but IME it works way better to use the same brand in a smooth climbing order...
You are not only mixing grit rating up but you are mixing the cutting type and the binders, you are getting different depths of cuts and changing the feel of the hones as you go... This is something I would not recommend unless that was all you had to work with... JMHO
To me the most important step remains the bevel setting at the 1K level. I use a fair amount of pressure with the circles followed by X strokes with some pressure. Normally, I then go to the 4K and my first set of circles is with pressure to reinforce the bevel setting. From there I go with no pressure circles and X stokes on the 4K, followed by no pressure X strokes on the 8K, 12K and then usually .5 diamond spray on felt. From a consistency and reliability standpoint, this method has proven to be near perfect for me. I am still not a fan of the DMT 1200 for bevel setting as I simply find this stone way more agressive than needed. I have experimented with adding a 2K in after the 1K and end results were no different. I tend to look at it as simply an extra step that if you feel comfortable with, you CAN do. You can also add a 10K into the mix before the 12K if you feel that it works better for you. You can also use and mix up your slurries at any part in the process you want with any stone you want to use. The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.
Have fun,
Lynn