Bevel Setting Under the Microscope

I've seen a few people ask about what a bevel should look like off of the 1k.

I took a series of pictures today as I was working on setting a bevel on a nasty, dull, pitted razor.

(note that the scratch pattern isn't very apparent in these pictures; I set up the light to show the edge really well, but it doesn't show scratches. These pictures are not useful in comparing the Chosera 1k to other stones...)

The first picture I had already done some circles. I didn't think to get a picture before taking out the chips.
In picture #2 you can see that the bevel still is not quite all the way to the edge. (does not cut arm hair at this point either)
In picture #3 it's actually looking pretty good; this is about as far as the microscope is useful for checking a bevel. It still does not cut arm hair.
Picture #4 is nearly perfect, but the edge still is not cutting arm hair; this is why people say that your microscope is not going to tell you everything... You still need to have a reliable means to check your bevel.
Picture #5 is after the bevel is cutting arm hair. Personally, I can't see much difference from picture #4 to picture #5... In both cases the bevel extends to the edge, with no chips etc... But, in one case the bevel is set, in the other it is not.

*note: All of these pictures are taken with the blade angled up into the microscope lens, to show the edge. Angling the blade away from the microscope to check the edge will really limit your ability to see the edge.

I agree that a microscope can't assure you the bevel is set. However, in this case, I do see a significant difference between the last and next-to-last photos.

HNSB,

That's a great sequence of photos! Thanks for posting this.

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Originally Posted by pcb01

I agree that a microscope can't assure you the bevel is set. However, in this case, I do see a significant difference between the last and next-to-last photos.

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I think most of the difference is because, in spite of my best efforts, the lighting is slightly different between the last two photos. The important thing to compare here is that the bevel runs all the way to the edge and the edge is straight.
Unless of course, you're seeing something that I'm not?

Very good pictures, thank you very much!:beer1: I can see a bit of change too between the 4. and 5. photo, but the AHT or TNT is very good to see if the bevel is really set. The microscope is good to see if there is any reason to use these tests. It is totally meaningless to use any sharpness tests if you have microchips and/or the bevel doesn't look good under the mircoscope.

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Originally Posted by pcb01

I agree that a microscope can't assure you the bevel is set. However, in this case, I do see a significant difference between the last and next-to-last photos.

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I agree!
It might just be lighting, or wishful thinking, but I too feel there is a difference in the last 2 pics. #5 looks a better, more uniform edge.
Thanks for posting, very nice and uniform pictures with the tool at hand.
I have a similar one, and getting similar conditions on those photos are not easy:)

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Originally Posted by pcb01

I do see a significant difference between the last and next-to-last photos.

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Originally Posted by Birnando

I agree!
It might just be lighting, or wishful thinking, but I too feel there is a difference in the last 2 pics. #5 looks a better, more uniform edge.

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Ok, now that I'm looking at the pictures on a different monitor I see what you guys are talking about.
Yesterday I just thought you were both nuts! It turns out it was me. Haha.
(I still think the lighting makes the difference between #4 and #5 more dramatic though)


The important thing here if you're a beginner reading this: there is no way to tell from the pictures alone whether the bevel is set. #4 could be a set bevel (but it's not) and #5 might not be a set bevel (but it is) and the only way to know for sure is to have some other reliable means of testing it.
All you should be looking for in the microscope is that there is a single bevel that extends all the way to the edge, and that there are no chips or pits at the edge.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

All you should be looking for in the microscope is that there is a single bevel that extends all the way to the edge, and that there are no chips or pits at the edge.

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This should be put in the wiki :) Very well said, and this is a good answer for a lot of topics about honing with a microscope.

You also need to realize that the bevel may appear to be set, but the bevels on either side may not be meeting one another yet:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...uy_3/bevel.png

This is another shortcoming of using optical devices to check bevels; you can't tell when the bevel is actually set, only when it looks pretty!

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you can't tell when the bevel is actually set, only when it looks pretty!

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*hihi* that´s exactly what I do, good point

A microscope can not show you when a bevel is set, but it can tell you when there is a problem with it.
Like, when you´re having one or two microchips or tiny cracks that you can not see or evaluate with any other method

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

*hihi* that´s exactly what I do, good point

A microscope can not show you when a bevel is set, but it can tell you when there is a problem with it.
Like, when you´re having one or two microchips or tiny cracks that you can not see or evaluate with any other method

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Quite so! Just last night I had a bevel that looked great to the naked eye, but upon inspection under my hand-held microscope I saw all the nice little chips on the edge that I still had to hone out. If anybody is looking for a cheap, and relatively decent, microscope radioshack has them for ~$12USD: Illuminated Microscope - RadioShack.com

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Originally Posted by HNSB

In picture #2 you can see that the bevel still is not quite all the way to the edge. (does not cut arm hair at this point either)
In picture #3 it's actually looking pretty good; this is about as far as the microscope is useful for checking a bevel. It still does not cut arm hair.
Picture #4 is nearly perfect, but the edge still is not cutting arm hair; this is why people say that your microscope is not going to tell you everything... You still need to have a reliable means to check your bevel.Picture #5 is after the bevel is cutting arm hair. Personally, I can't see much difference from picture #4 to picture #5... In both cases the bevel extends to the edge, with no chips etc... But, in one case the bevel is set, in the other it is not.

*note: All of these pictures are taken with the blade angled up into the microscope lens, to show the edge. Angling the blade away from the microscope to check the edge will really limit your ability to see the edge.

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Originally Posted by adbuett

You also need to realize that the bevel may appear to be set, but the bevels on either side may not be meeting one another yet:

This is another shortcoming of using optical devices to check bevels; you can't tell when the bevel is actually set, only when it looks pretty!

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I kinda think Eric pointed that out quite a few times in his post :)

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Originally Posted by adbuett

You also need to realize that the bevel may appear to be set, but the bevels on either side may not be meeting one another yet:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...uy_3/bevel.png

This is another shortcoming of using optical devices to check bevels; you can't tell when the bevel is actually set, only when it looks pretty!

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I use an extra set of reading glasses (2x) on top of my regular prescription glasses (bifocals) . Holding the blade out under good strong linght, you can see an edge if it is not sharp. Look at the edge straight on. When you cannot see the edge heel to toe you're getting that "ridge" out of the center, and probably close to getting that bevel set. I also have a 20X loupe that I use to look at the edges. They show pitting sometiems on old razors, but more importantly, if you look real close, you can see something that looks like a serrated knife edge. You want to eliminate that as much as possible.

signed: Hairless in Fennville

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Originally Posted by Gibbs

I use an extra set of reading glasses (2x) on top of my regular prescription glasses (bifocals) . Holding the blade out under good strong linght, you can see an edge if it is not sharp. When you cannot see the edge heel to toe you're getting that "ridge" out of the center, and probably close to getting that bevel set. I also have a 20X loupe that I use to look at the edges. They show pitting sometiems on old razors, but more importantly, if you look real close, you can see something that looks like a serrated knife edge. You want to eliminate that as much as possible.

signed: Hairless in Fennville

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That's a great idea, thanks for the tip! I know what I can use that 10,20,30x loupe I have for now. I have a really thick frameback I have been working on that somebody must have used exclusively as a box opener. There is absolutely no spine wear, but the edge is so incredibly thick that there is a very noticeable line of sharpie left at the edge where I marked for stroke-checking purposes. This technique will come in very handy when I start to get close to the bevels meeting.

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Originally Posted by pcb01

I agree that a microscope can't assure you the bevel is set. However, in this case, I do see a significant difference between the last and next-to-last photos.

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I haven't been around for a while but I'll go back to my old ways and declare that I disagree with all who have agreed with this. With a stereomicroscope, I absolutely CAN be assured with a microscope that my bevel is set because I can clearly see that it is.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I haven't been around for a while but I'll go back to my old ways and declare that I disagree with all who have agreed with this. With a stereomicroscope, I absolutely CAN be assured with a microscope that my bevel is set because I can clearly see that it is.

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Quit being such a grumpy old man!
Hehe.

I am gonna pick your brain about this on Saturday... I don't know of anyone more qualified to talk about microscopy as it relates to razors.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I haven't been around for a while but I'll go back to my old ways and declare that I disagree with all who have agreed with this. With a stereomicroscope, I absolutely CAN be assured with a microscope that my bevel is set because I can clearly see that it is.

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You're not actually disagreeing with anybody, though. You are introducing a new instrument into the conversation. A microscope and a stereomicroscope are different enough that I feel they can be classified as different instruments. I can definitely imagine that adding depth perception would allow for the observation of the bevel being set. I wish I had the cash to buy a stereomicroscope though; I remember in high school we had a couple and it was ridiculously fun looking at stuff under them! Fingernails are creepy that close up.

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Originally Posted by adbuett

You're not actually disagreeing with anybody, though. You are introducing a new instrument into the conversation.

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You make an excellent point. That's why I specified that mine is a stereomicroscope. Most critically, with it I can rotate the blade slightly and see that flat nub depicted in the excellent drawing in an earlier post.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You make an excellent point. That's why I specified that mine is a stereomicroscope. Most critically, with it I can rotate the blade slightly and see that flat nub depicted in the excellent drawing in an earlier post.

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I have used a cheapo USB microscope on occasion but it has left me without decisive answers, as you have all stated.
I still think it is a good, but limited, tool to use when honing.
My Jewelers loupe is even better.

I did go out to see if I couldn't get me a reasonably priced stereo microscope, but I know that there is such a thing:)
Those things are expensive!!

I am new to honing and use the little Radio Shack to just see where I am on the honing, but check on arm hair for sharpness. In the past, upon receiving razors that were honed by Glenn, Max, Lynn, Dave and Dylan, I have looked at bevels under the little scope to get an idea of how they should look. This morning I was setting the bevel on a Boker 101 and after a period of time took a look under the scope. The bevel looked exactly like the third photograph in the series posted by HNSB. I knew further work was required. After another period of time I looked at the bevel. It was even across the razor, the scalloping was gone and it looked like the last picture in the series. However, it did not pop arm hair. I knew I was close and just patiently continued. Soon enough it popped arm hair easily. I looked again and it was no different than the last time I checked, but it was really popping the hair off my arm. At this point I went to the 4,8,12K progression.
For me, as a new guy, it is another way to get the feel of a good bevel. I shaved with the Boker this morning. Was it as smooth as the ones done by the masters? Nope, but it was close enough that I had a nice shave.

Just my 2 cents as an FNG.

Isn't creating a burr on the 1k a good way to know the bevel is set?

Wow Jeff taking it step by step worked out ???? :), what a danged concept :rofl2::rofl2:

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Originally Posted by Pete2s

Isn't creating a burr on the 1k a good way to know the bevel is set?

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For most everything that cuts EXCEPT a Straight Razor :)

If you do that on a SR you are destroying the very fine edge and you have to start over again or risk your skin...

The major difference between all other kinds of sharpening is that sharp is all you need, with a SR you need sharp
and S M O O T H !!!
That aspect of dragging it across your face changes the equation...

Edit: Now if you wanted to get really really technical, as in engineering type technical, yes you could, but in real life it is harder to do, and costs more steel, and most likely skin :)

I tried it in the beginning, it was a bad idea :) Too much steel was wasted, and I had a lot of bonus work to do after I had a burr on the other side too, because after removing the burr I had a lot of big microchips on the edge that had to be removed. So I wouldn't use it, there are much better ways to see if the bevel is set.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Wow Jeff taking it step by step worked out ???? :), what a danged concept :rofl2::rofl2:

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It may take a long while to get my razors like you make them, but I am working at it. Decided to try another. I will say when I get them back from you they shave soooooo nicely.........

Thanks!!

Bevel setting is under rated in honing I think. I use three different stones in combination to set a bevel (DMT600 and Shapton Ceramic Pro 1k and 2k). Excellent pictures by the way. It's good to see what a properly set bevel looks like.

The photos are very enlightening, but I'm thinking I need some recalibration.

I have read several posts where the Norton 1K is viewed as "fast cutting". As I have tried to get to a good bevel on some vintage blades (and realize now I was not getting there!) I was disappointed that after 30 or 40 circles I didn't seem to be making much headway. HNSB did 200 circles and 145 laps of X strokes. Is this typical of a "fast cutting" stone?

Thanks for your insight!

If the bevel is in bad shape, than it can happen that you need a few hundred laps ona DMT 1200, and thats an even faster cutting stone as I know. If the bevel is ok, than you can get by 30-40 laps to set a bevel.