Touch ups and shave strokes

I've noticed that a lot of people say they need to touch up pretty often (7-10 shaves) and many others say they need to touch up less often (every 25-30 shaves or more). All seem to agree that the steel and the beard play big roles. Just wondering if there is a correlation between the frequency of touch ups and whether a person does an atg pass or not. If this has been discussed before, sorry for bringing it up again. Also, I wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the general shaving forum, please move if necessary.

So, if you touch up frequently, do you do an atg pass? If you touch up less frequently, do you typically skip the atg?

Thanks,

Ken

I'm not so sure the ATG is the factor. I suspect it's a combination of how you hold the razor meaning angle of attack and your tolerance as the comfort level decreases and how sharp the razor started out. After that other things like beard toughness come into play.

I have a very tough beard. I find that if I watch my shave closely and get a good stretch on my skin, it minimizes touch-up.

Actually, I would theorize that an ATG pass is very hard on a razor's edge, especially if a beard is dense/coarse. Yes, stubble reduction has already taken place before ATG, but the angle at which the blade meets the stout whiskers still provides enough resistance to do some damage at the microscopic level. I don't have any microscope pics to back this up, only personal experience. But as our friend TBS pointed out there are many variables that contribute to the frequency of blade touch ups.

I have no idea if my beard counts as tough, but I can't get by without a light touchup on a barber's hone when I inch close to 7 shaves. I do WTG, XTG, ATG, and minor finishing touches.

That said, in January I got my razor honed at Rasage Poulin. I must have shaved 15+ times before the razor started to pull. After the first touchup on my barber's hone, I routinely touched up at a rate of 7 shaves.

I have no idea why the edge off a true honing stone (e.g. Norton) would be more durable than the edge off a barber hone, though.

I have only one straight, a DOVO Best 6/8, and shave 6 days a week with it. Strop on canvas+leather on my SRD 3" IV.

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Originally Posted by MHV

That said, in January I got my razor honed at Rasage Poulin. I must have shaved 15+ times before the razor started to pull. After the first touchup on my barber's hone, I routinely touched up at a rate of 7 shaves.

I have no idea why the edge off a true honing stone (e.g. Norton) would be more durable than the edge off a barber hone, though.

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Because the edge/bevel is smoother off of the higher grit stones/hones and it slices the hair with less friction, there by reducing the damage to the edge...

I know people keep attributing higher and higher grit to every hone out there, but I seriously doubt many Barber's Hones are over 8k they are designed to keep a shaving edge going on a razor just what you are doing with it...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Because the edge/bevel is smoother off of the higher grit stones/hones and it slices the hair with less friction, there by reducing the damage to the edge...

I know people keep attributing higher and higher grit to every hone out there, but I seriously doubt many Barber's Hones are over 8k they are designed to keep a shaving edge going on a razor just what you are doing with it...

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I do have a paddle with CrOx laying around, so it could be a useful thing to do after a touchup, then?

What Glen said. I'm about a 2-3 weeker, but also beyond Norton's 8k (my finisher is a Spyderco Ultra-Fine). Beard does make a difference with wear and tear on the razor. How many strokes are made figures into edge degradation. Even if it's a shave with only ATG and XTG, if the shaver is not efficient and makes many strokes, a more gradual beard reduction than an experienced shaver, there will be more wear on the edge.

Yesterday I didn't stay loyal to the moist heat towel treatment, which for me usually isn't more than 3-4 minutes. I slapped a hot wet towel on my face and watched a movie on DVD while I let it soak for two, say.. five minute intervals. My hair was softer than the usual shave. The softer the beard hairs, the less wear on the edge. The more efficient the shaver (less strokes) the more shaves they get with a given edge. The better the stropping, the more shaves one can get.

ATG is only one factor, probably not the biggest factor either. I'd say, in the end, other factors are much bigger players in the whole "how many shaves per edge before refreshing" question.

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Originally Posted by MHV

I do have a paddle with CrOx laying around, so it could be a useful thing to do after a touchup, then?

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Yes, it could help with the friction, But if done wrong it would hurt on the wear of the edge..
This is what every post is basically saying, is that there are Sooooooo many variables to play with.. Once you get a baseline established then adjust one at a time and that should start extending in between honing times...
On the other hand, so what if you have to touch up every week or so to get a close/comfortable shave, so be it, that might be your routine... It isn't wrong if it works and you get good shaves, just so long as you keep improving go with it...

Great info! There are a lot of variables, that's true. That's one of the things that makes shaving with a straight so much fun. On another note, do you think atg shavers are more sensitive to changes in their razor's edge? That might make them feel like they need to sharpen sooner rather than later.

Ken

I don't know if it's only ATG shaving, but those of us w/ tougher beards (some hairs on my chin are nearly as thick as mechanical pencil lead-- the really thin kind, smaller than 0.5mm, but still... ;) ) probably have less tolerance for dulling before the comfort starts to degrade to an unacceptable level. At least, that's true for me. My sideburns/cheeks are much lighter & I can still get a reasonably good shave there when it starts to get unpleasant in tougher zones.

Hey, I'm surprised to what I read here!...

Some of you say they hone there razors once every 7/10 shaves, that means nearly once a week!

It's really surprising to me.

I can read nearly everywhere that a razor should only be honed once a year, not more, and only stropping, sometimes with Crox (15/20 shaves) should be enought...

I'm affraid about your razors if you hone them so often, you'll soon have 1/8"...

And what to think with the past : most people in the first half of XXth century only had a razor and a strop, no honing stone. They went to a honer once when needed, but what the hell this would have been if they had to do it weekly...

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

I can read nearly everywhere that a razor should only be honed once a year, not more, and only stropping, sometimes with Crox (15/20 shaves) should be enought...

I'm affraid about your razors if you hone them so often, you'll soon have 1/8"...

And what to think with the past : most people in the first half of XXth century only had a razor and a strop, no honing stone. They went to a honer once when needed, but what the hell this would have been if they had to do it weekly...

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Are you basing your judgement on experience or just what other people are saying?

And second, how do you KNOW for sure that people in the first half of the 20th century never had a stone?

Did you ask them?

I'm basing on both experience and reading on forums about straight razors and honing (coticule.be)... If you strop enough between each shave, you don't need stone that often.

And for the people in the first half of 20th century, I know the exeple of my grandfathers and girlfriend's granfather, no one out of the four had a stone. A second element would be you can easilli find old razos, very less oftne old stones... A thrid would be, in the past you had many honers going for villages to villages, they had work to do, enough to get a fulltime job, this would not have been possible if everybody had a stone...

In the old days, lots of barbers touched up customers' razors, so I don't see how we can determine how often our ancestors touched up their blades based on whether they owned razor stones. They probably did it when it was necessary & that was that. You also don't find as many antique strops for sale as razors; presumably our ancestors still stropped, though... ;)

Be that as it may, beard & steel & probably even grind types play a role here too, all things being equal (assuming proper shaving/stropping technique here). Someone w/ a light beard who only does 1 pass WTG, using a quarter hollow harder steel razor like a TI or Le Grelot will probably get more shaves out of his blade than someone w/ a very heavy beard who does a full shave (including ATG) w/ a full or extra hollow softer steel razor. And then we have corrosion to think about: does our hypothetical shaver live near a body of saltwater or in the middle of the desert? How much stropping does he do post-shave? Does he oil his blade afterwards? What kind of fabric strop does he use (does he even use one?) & is it treated w/ anything? How is his beard prep? Does he count pasted stropping as a "touchup" or only honing?

Also, some shavers will have less tolerance for pulling; for them the comfort factor goes earlier & they touch up more frequently (probably much lighter than someone who lets the blade go longer).

And finally, light touchups like we're talking about remove very little steel. You won't get to 1/8 anytime in your lifetime doing this! ;)

I am a 5-7 day guy. I have a patch of beard on each side of my mouth that seems like there are major nerves attached to them and it if very noticeable when my razors performance drops very much. I could continue going but why? When all it takes is 5-10 stropping strokes on a paddle strop, felt piece for me, with your favorite stropping material to give you close to that "off the hone" cutting performance. I keep a felt pad in the bathroom so it is not big deal for me. I will say that after 1 or 2 paddle strops I go to the stones. If you have 2 razors that means a month's worth of shaves. I like honing to much not to go to the rocks for a 15 or 20 minute session once a month. There is nothing like a razor freshly of the rocks.

Take Care,
Richard

I didn't even think about the fact that an atg pass, regardless of its effect on the blade relative to other types of passes, is an extra pass. :gaah: So, that's 7 extra passes per week over someone who does only 2 passes every day. I'd think that certainly influences the frequency of touch ups.

Could even be worse if in fact, stoke numbers are a big factor in edge life, since ATG is usually lots of short overlapping strokes.:hmmm: