Need diagnostic help...

This is my first post, although I've spent quite a few hours gleaning wisdom from this excellent resource. I'm new to straight razor shaving, and thus far I haven't been able to get through a complete shave. I think the problem is the sharpness of my razor (or razors; in two weeks I've already gotten four, including a W&B 7/8 that will be beautiful someday). First my question, then the background.

My question is, what other honing techniques can I try, given the equipment I currently have?

Here's what I've tried: My favorite eBay razor was blunt enough that it didn't even have a bevel. To establish a bevel, I stuck some 600-grit sandpaper to a piece of glass with water and tried to grind a bevel that was even on both sides, keeping the spine and edge flat. I applied some pressure, maybe a medium amount. I actually worked the blade back and forth without flipping it over for a while, then flipped it and repeated on the other side.

Then I went to 1500 and 2000 grit sandpapers, using more of a honing motion: stroke, then flip the blade, then stroke on the other side. I'd say I did 50 laps on each grade of paper.

Finally I went to a barber's hone, which I think is ceramic. It's a Boss hone I got on eBay. I've lapped it on 600-grit paper and a piece of glass, so it should be flat.

I spent about 20 minutes doing X patterns on the hone, slowly, trying to keep the spine flat and use little or no pressure. I'm going slowly on the hanging strop, trying to keep the razor flat.

When I look at the edge with the 60x Radioshack microscope, I see a pretty consistent scratch pattern. I can see some irregularities in the edge, but it looks pretty straight to me.

But the razor shaves my arm hair reluctantly, and when I try it on my face . . . well, let's just say I used a lot of witch hazel this morning. It does shave, but it doesn't get even my sideburns smooth without a LOT of strokes, and it sticks fast in my chin stubble.

So, to clarify my question, assuming that my actual shaving technique is not the problem (I'm using a mug and brush, showering first, keeping my beard wet, using lots of lather, stretching my skin, keeping the spine one to two spine widths from my skin, going with the grain on my first pass), can I get a shaving-sharp edge from my barber's hone? How many laps on the barber's would it take to polish the coarse edge from the 2000 grit paper? What else can I try that I haven't already done?

Also, is a wire edge visible under the 60x microscope? What does it look like?

I know, I know, I really should send it to Lynn or one of the other guys, but I'd like to be able to get an edge I can use while I wait for them to work their magic. The Mach III is just killing me...

Thanks for any help you can offer--this forum is great.

Ideally you need to get a 2" Norton 4k/8k waterstone. 3" is ok if you can't find the 2". That should be ok for restoring mildly rough blades. If you don't feel like spending that much money, look into the Japanese slip stones. Get the 4k and 8k. http://w-u.com/wucatresults.htm?snum=26375 They were advertised as Chinese but when I picked'em up from their CDN distributor, they had Made in Japan labels. With them I was able to keep my blades shaving very nicely and they're cheaper than the Norton. Since they are wedge-shaped, you need to place one on top of the other to get a flat surface. Norton is easier to work with because it's longer and it cuts faster but these will get the job done on a budget. Only after getting it nice and sharp on either of the two alternatives is your razor ready for a finishing hone. However, I didn't find any distinct benefits unless you use a larger Coticule, a Shapton Pro Series or a few other pricier hones. Don't use that razor until you hone it on 4k/8k stones. Good luck!

Get the 3" Norton 4k/8k much better.

Thanks for the tips; the Norton is a little out of my budget right now, so I got the slip stones. From there I guess I can just follow the pyramid, since I'll have 4/8k stones available.

What is the grit equivalent for an average barber's hone?

There is no standard grit for barbers hones. I think they tend to run 8k to 13k or so. This is a huge jump from the 2k grit paper you used, so you're not getting anywhere fast. They weren't intended to get a dull razor sharp, just for keeping a sharp razor sharp.

If it's having trouble shaving arm hair then it's nowhere near shaving sharp. Even at 2k grit I wouldn't take it to a higher grit until it can pop arm hair without touching the skin.
It sounds like the razor needs to go back to about 4k or so, then up to 8k, then to a finishing hone (like your barber's hone).

It will take you a lot more pyramids than with the Norton. Here are a few useful tips with these stones:

1) Use a plastic bread-board as a working surface and moisten it first. It will keep the surface moist and preserve some of the slurry.
2) Take off the labels and lap both surfaces.
3) Always use one side for regular honing and one for circular.
4) If you don't want your stones to slip, wipe off the adhering sides after soaking them and then press them firmly together.
5) Have a bowl of water next to you and dip the blade in it before honing each time you turn over the stones.
6) They are small, so watch your fingers as you're holding them.

Joshearl,

You have a private message . . .

Ugh, you took a lot of steel off that razor that probably didn't need to come off. Well, I agree with the other comments here stating that the jump from 2000 grit to a barber hone is too far of a stretch.

Save your money and get the Norton combo 4k/8k hone. It really is all you need, even for the heavy work. And after you get it sharp I suggest using a Belgian Hone to maintain it instead of your barber hone. The edge will feel better with the Belgian. But the Belgian will also run you some money so keep saving.

I know you want to learn but you'll need the proper tools to get the kind of results we talk about so a good strategy for now is to save your money send out your razor and when you have the right tools you'll learn quicker. Just my 2¢.

Regards,
EL

The trouble with those barber hones is you never know the actual grit size. If your lucky you know its a finishing hone as opposed to a work hone. I have to agree with El, save your money and get the Norton. Its pricey but when you consider all the time your spending and the lack of results it worth the money if you can scrape up the dough.

I also have to agree that you probably need to go back to a 4K grit for a few passes.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

There is no standard grit for barbers hones. I think they tend to run 8k to 13k or so.

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The hardest thing to find in barber hones was the coarser grits. The coarsestI found was a Carborundum 201, on which the coarse side seems coarser than 4K. The other side is 6-8K. It's a surprizinglyfast barber hone. There is also an Ahconite and a double duc dry, both of which have one fairly coarse side.

Before I found the coarse hones, it was pretty difficult (a lot of work) to set up a new edge with a barber hone.

OK, my 4/8k slip stones arrived today, so I'm going to give them a try tonight. Couple more questions here:

FiReSTaRT mentioned that it would take more pyramids with these than on the Norton. Why is that? Are they less aggressive than the Norton, even though they have the same grit?

Second, should I start out doing pyramids, or should I just work on the 4000 stone for a while and then start pyramids?

(I'm not too concerned about wasting metal on this razor, since it's pretty basic and only cost me about $1.50 on eBay.)

Meanwhile I'll start saving for that Norton...

Thanks,
Josh

Hi Josh,
Here's the lowdown on the stones:
1) They are slow-cutters compared to N4/8k, they are shorter and narrower. Therefore you have 2 handicaps right away (cutting rate and surface covered per pass). On a good note, they will turn your razor into a shaver.
2) You should download Randy T's help file on the pyramid and Lynn's tips, especially #2.
Even though the disclaimer says that the Help file only applies to N4k/8k and that the pyramid needs to be adjusted to work on other hones, it will work on the slipstones that you have, it will just need to be repeated.

What I would do if I were you is do about 40 passes on the 4k with pressure. Then another 30 passes with the 8k. The 8k will polish the current bevel and you'll know which parts of the blade need more work and you can focus on them as you work the 4k/8k pyramids until you get an even bevel.

If you're planning on buying the Norton, get the 2" wide one. It will feel the same way those slipstones do, but it will cut faster and with the longer strokes, you will need fewer passes. In addition to that you save a bit of cash.

Edit: A few more tips:
1) Lap the working surfaces of the stones after soaking them, by rubbing them against each other, under the tap.
2) You can use the thick side of one slipstone to clean the accumulated metal off the surface of the other, again under the tap.
3) If your edge has any nicks or pitting, you can use circular honing on the underside of the 4k to eliminate'em.

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Originally Posted by joshearl

should I start out doing pyramids, or should I just work on the 4000 stone for a while and then start pyramids?

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You should always evaluate the razor before you do anything. Some might even just need stropping. Once it's evaluated you can determine how much work it needs. If it's dull, jump into your pyramids. If it's almost there go right to the 8K, do a few strokes and test again.

The only shave-ready razor I ever received was sold as shave ready by Tony M. The rest of them needed quite a bit of work on the hones even when I started working with the Norton. The only tryly easy one was The Winner, but I think other delicately ground razors will give me as little trouble as it did now that I've got a fast cutter.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

The only shave-ready razor I ever received was sold as shave ready by Tony M. The rest of them needed quite a bit of work on the hones even when I started working with the Norton. The only tryly easy one was The Winner, but I think other delicately ground razors will give me as little trouble as it did now that I've got a fast cutter.

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I have won 5 razors on ebay in the last few months they were all unused and while it wasn't much to get them shave ready, they all needed some work. (Tony's 4 sided pasted paddle did the trick to get them ready to go):)

By the way this is my 2k post :O

Congrats Rich. It's good to know I'm not the only loudmouth out there ;)

One thing you need to keep in mind is that even shave ready razors sold by our members may not be shave ready for you. THe best anyone can do without knowing you is to make the razor shave ready for the average guy. If you have special needs, such as you like your razor extra sharp or you have a very tough beard, the razor may not be shave ready for you. I have seen our honemeisters take back razors when a buyer had a problem and customize the edge for the user's needs.

The moral is if your beard is pretty much average even commercial razors may be shave ready a lot of the time, but if you have special needs it may rarely be shave ready. Guys with a tough beard have a special problem in that a razor that may be fine for most may be inadequate for them in that a typically honed edge may be too weak for them. The result may be similar to a nearly wire edge. They use the razor and the edge quickly disappears of may require a lot of stropping during the shave. One solution is to sacrafice a little sharpness to create an edge that's more durable. This a common trade-off in knife sharpening.

I gave the slipstones a try last night and met with mixed results. I lapped them on 600-grit sandpaper and glass, then I did 40 laps with the 4000 stone and 30 with the 8000. Then I went through the aggressive pyramid once and stropped 30 laps. (I used X-strokes throughout.)

Before I started, the razor (which I'd beveled on 2000 grit sandpaper) could shave my arm hair, although not easily. After I finished it didn't even want to do that. I did look at the edge under my microscope, and it looks much more polished and even. So I guess I'm heading in the right direction. I tried a few shaving strokes this morning and it didn't do much except scrape off lather.

Tonight maybe I'll try another pyramid or two and work on getting lighter pressure on the hones. I have a feeling I'll be sending one of my razors off to a honemeister pretty soon...

Josh, I would not do it if I were you. Since you already started honing, you need to keep on working on them instead of giving up. The problem with these stones is that they cut slowly, so you won't see results instantaneously. However, they will get you a shave-ready edge as long as you keep your cool. I use moderate pressure during most of the honing process, until I get very close and then I soften it up. What you have to start doing is just go through pyramids as you focus on keeping the pressure even and each part of the blade spending equal time on the hone.

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Originally Posted by joshearl

I gave the slipstones a try last night and met with mixed results. I lapped them on 600-grit sandpaper and glass, then I did 40 laps with the 4000 stone and 30 with the 8000. Then I went through the aggressive pyramid once and stropped 30 laps. (I used X-strokes throughout.).

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You don't have to do complete pyramids, so if a test shows you're close after a certain number of pyramids, on the next one you might do a few tests mid-pyramid to see if you're there.

You're problem now is that you don't know where you are, other than it's not keen. I suggest before you do anything, perform a thumbnail test to establish this. Then you'll know if the blade is dull, micro-chipped, has a wire edge, etc. I wouldn't try any pyramids until you pass the thumbnail test. Then, do 1 pyramid and test for sharpness (HHT or whatever you use). Keep repeating this until the test shows you're close, then try a conservative pyramid with a test after each rep. Stop when you pass this test and shave test.

Joe put it in more eloquent words than I did. Listen to him Josh, as he knows what he's doing and then some.

Joe, as I understand it, the thumbnail test consists of wetting your nail and drawing the razor's edge over the surface of the nail with as little pressure as possible. I've been trying that, and the edge does seem to bite in just a little, leaving a small groove, and it feels consistent over the whole edge. It doesn't slip or feel rough. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?

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Originally Posted by joshearl

... I lapped them on 600-grit sandpaper and glass ...

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This could be part of your problem. I lapped my Norton combination water stone recently with Silicon Carbide which was fairly coarse and the result was the surface was just too coarse to get a good edge on the razor. 1mm would be fine and the next couldn't cut crap. I'd go to 1000-2000 grit high quality wet/dry for finishing that job to make sure everything is working optimally before you try another pyramid.

And I'm going to disagree with, Joe (:eek: AGAIN!!) but only just a little. While a whole pyramid (up to 25 4k laps) is overkill when you're very close, I often find that if I'm continually stymied trying to finish an edge off, I can go back and with a pyramid up to 10, get a good foundation for the completion of the edge. each circumstance is unique and you'll have to decide what you think you should try.

X

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Originally Posted by joshearl

Joe, as I understand it, the thumbnail test consists of wetting your nail and drawing the razor's edge over the surface of the nail with as little pressure as possible. I've been trying that, and the edge does seem to bite in just a little, leaving a small groove, and it feels consistent over the whole edge. It doesn't slip or feel rough. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?

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That's right. Just add one initial step. Allow the edge to rest on the fingernail and begin tilting the thumb down. You should be able to tilt down to 45 degrees without the blade slipping sideways. If it doesn't pass this test it's dull.

The thumbnail test is done in a few places along the blade. I like either end and the middle. You may get different results at different spots. All spots need to pass the test. For a more detailed explanation of what the test results mean, go to classicshaving.com, the "how to ... and why" section. See the subsection on honing.

From your descriiption, it seems your blade may pass the test. Just make sure it passes the tilt test.

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Originally Posted by xman

And I'm going to disagree with, Joe (:eek: AGAIN!!) but only just a little. While a whole pyramid (up to 25 4k laps) is overkill when you're very close, I often find that if I'm continually stymied trying to finish an edge off, I can go back and with a pyramid up to 10, get a good foundation for the completion of the edge. each circumstance is unique and you'll have to decide what you think you should try.

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I don't disagree with this. I did say that the partial pyramid should be done when your close. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I don't disagree with this. I did say that the partial pyramid should be done when your close. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

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Then I agree not to disagree. :thinking: :D

X

Well, the pyramids seem to be working. I did five or six last night, and this morning the razor was actually shaving, although it was tugging badly around my chin. Although it wasn't even in the neighborhood of a close shave, it did knock my stubble down quite a bit with one pass.

The edge does seem to pass the 45-degree tilt part of the thumbnail test. It's starting to bite more as I drag it across my nail, too.

I'm realizing that what I thought was a smooth-looking edge (viewing through the 60x Radio Shack microscope) was actually more like a crosscut saw blade. Now my edge is more polished, and the teeth are so small I can barely make them out.

I'll do a few more pyramids tonight, I guess. The heel and point of the edge still seem like they need work.

Is it possible to develop a wire edge if you stick with the pyramids and use light pressure?

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Originally Posted by joshearl

The edge does seem to pass the 45-degree tilt part of the thumbnail test. It's starting to bite more as I drag it across my nail, too.

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As soon as you get a bite and it feels smooth, stop using the thumbnail test. It will dull the edge. That's when you move on to only your sharpness test (HHT).

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I'm realizing that what I thought was a smooth-looking edge (viewing through the 60x Radio Shack microscope) was actually more like a crosscut saw blade. Now my edge is more polished, and the teeth are so small I can barely make them out.

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At 60x it should look almost perfectly smooth. If you can see chips or a rollercoaster pattern that's more than 10% (usually those will produce a slight bump as you slide the edge over the nail) of the bevel, you need to work some more on the 4K. This is all part of setting up the edge. Once the edge is set you can move on to the pyramids, and no more thumbnail test.

As you noticed, there will be some sharpness after the edge is set. That's why you need to do a sharpness (HHT) just before the first pyramid. You probably won't be there yet, but you want to know how close you are. If you just happen to be close you don't want to overshoot the point of keeness by doing too much. If you happen to be lucky you may be real close, and you could end up requiring less than a full pyramid.

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Is it possible to develop a wire edge if you stick with the pyramids and use light pressure?

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Yes. That's why I suggested a sharpness test before the first pyramid. If you happen to be close, a full pyramid may put you over the top. If you create a wire edge, it could set you back a lot after the wire comes off. Overshhooting is the reason why so many newbies end up doing endless pyramids and never quite getting there.

If it feels like you're almost there and suddenly the sharpness drops way down, if you had good clean metal on the bevels, you've probably gone over the top and just removed a wire edge. Grab the microscope and see if you now have a new rollercoaster pattern. If the metal looks clean and not discolored or microscopically rusted (in spots) you probably removed a wire edge.

Joe,

Very intuitive point, as some, I think, believe the pyramid by itself wards off overhoning and wire edges. Very good thread.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

. . . 3" is ok if you can't find the 2".

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2" saves a dollar or two in the short term but 3" is much much much much much better :p.

Depends on who you ask. I would have got the 2" even if I had to pay the same price because of the results that I am getting.

The 2000 grit sandpaper and the 4000 grit stone are about the same size of grit. In the past whenever I have used 2000 grit sandpaper and then tried to go to a hone I have had problems.
My conclusion was that the sandpaper has to much "give" in it and resulted in an edge that was ever so slightly "rounded over". My suggestion to you is to go no further than 1500 grit on the sandpaper and then use the 4000 hone to make the bevel flat. The Thumbnail test on the 4000 is what you need to pass and also when viewed under the micrscope the edge should be of a uniform color and texture for the full "width " of the bevel. If the bevel is two colors then this indicates two angles. The edge should also be of a uniform finish (roughness) with no obvious nicks. Once you have achieved this then you are almost done. Then start the Pyramid at about either the 10/5 level or the 5/5 level using only the weight of the razor and testing frequently with either the thumb pad test or the HHT, or both.

Hope this helps,:)