Honing a Livi ATS34

Last November I bought a Mastro Livi 8/8 & it shave pretty good for a while & I noticed a few tiny edge chips - so I breadknifed it. Recently I have spent a lot of time trying to get this blade to shave something other than arm hair.
I know - bevel, bevel, bevel, so I got that on a Norton 1000 (didn't need much). Got a nice even clean bevel on both sides & no chips seen with a 40X loup. Many laps on the 4k/8K and then Chinese Water Stone - not sure about the grit :rofl2:, I read that post too. I have gotten a couple of carbon steel razors to shave, but this Livi won't cut.
Even used my little double sided frictionite.
Still won't shave by face.
What do you think? Not enough laps?
I go home in about a week and have a set of Spyderco hones that I will try when I return to this place. Won't need this blade at home `cause I got 4 unused edges honed by a professional waiting, just ask him & he will tell you it is so. He just has trouble with addresses.:rofl2:

The problem is that you breadknifed it. Breadknifing should only be reserved for last ditch restoration efforts. My advice is to use 2 or 3 layers of tape and go back to the 1K. Don't leave it until after it can pop arm hair. Then just remove the tape and do some pyramid honing on the other stones. Good luck.

Please before we jump to conclusions on this

Define "bread-knifed it" ????? exactly what you did????

And Mike I will try and lead ya through it, but if it doesn't work by the time you get home, send her to me I will get her shaving for you just like the other four :)

No charge for the honing it will make up for the Address screwup hehehehe

If it turns out you actually breadknifed it you realize according to section 7682 code of Shavia Law that is an offense punishable by have your straights confiscated and shaving with a Gillette Fusion for 2 years.

You said that you breadknifed it and got a bevel on the IK, but you said it "didn't need much". In an earlier honing life, when I breadknifed, it took me hours to get a bevel on 1K. I doubt that you came off the 1K with a proper edge.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

If it turns out you actually breadknifed it you realize according to section 7682 code of Shavia Law that is an offense punishable by have your straights confiscated and shaving with a Gillette Fusion for 2 years.

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:rofl2: , I don't want to know which will be the punishment for a guy who let his Filarmonica 14 falling from the washstand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theseus

My advice is to use 2 or 3 layers of tape and go back to the 1K. Don't leave it until after it can pop arm hair. Then just remove the tape and do some pyramid honing on the other stones. Good luck.

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Will not work that way. When you use tape, you are creating a steeper bevel. If you set a bevel w/ 3 layers of tape, you will have to then hone it w/ 3 layers of tape or you'll never reach the edge--the tip of the bevel will not contact the subsequent hones & will remain @ the 1k level.

If you want to avoid spine wear when you have a lot of work to do, use 1 layer of tape until finished (change it from time to time because it itself will wear), remove the tape, reset the bevel (no tape) & then hone as required. Unless you intend to use tape throughout, in which case, you have to use the same amount throughout.

This is why I personally don't care for the hassle of tape unless I'm playing around w/ microbevels @ the end of honing, but to each his own.

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Originally Posted by mjbryant

Last November I bought a Mastro Livi 8/8 & it shave pretty good for a while & I noticed a few tiny edge chips - so I breadknifed it. Recently I have spent a lot of time trying to get this blade to shave something other than arm hair.
I know - bevel, bevel, bevel, so I got that on a Norton 1000 (didn't need much). Got a nice even clean bevel on both sides & no chips seen with a 40X loup. Many laps on the 4k/8K and then Chinese Water Stone - not sure about the grit :rofl2:, I read that post too. I have gotten a couple of carbon steel razors to shave, but this Livi won't cut.
Even used my little double sided frictionite.
Still won't shave by face.
What do you think? Not enough laps?
I go home in about a week and have a set of Spyderco hones that I will try when I return to this place. Won't need this blade at home `cause I got 4 unused edges honed by a professional waiting, just ask him & he will tell you it is so. He just has trouble with addresses.:rofl2:

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Wow... the easy bit is fixing the addresses and should be done first.

ATS-34 is difficult steel to hone.

The coarse side of a frictionite is perhaps 2K if it is like mine.
and the fine side is about 4K or so.

So.
Double check the bevel with a marker and your 40x glass.
you can do this on the 4K side of your combo hone. Mark the
edge with a waterproof marker black is good some see red/
green/ blue better. Wipe the edge with the marker let if
fully dry and then one up and one back hone stroke
so both sides of the razor visit the 4k hone. Mark both the
spine and the edge. Inspect the edge and look for
a thin ink line on what should be the sharp side.

If the bevel extends all the way to the edge i.e. there
is no thin ink line you can begin a pyramid or progression.
My guess is that there is a thin ink line... If so go
back to the 1k...

If not ten or 20 smooth zero pressure strokes on the 4K side
followed by 20 to 30 smooth zero pressure strokes on the 8K
side then strop and shave test. Leave the Chinese Water
stone for another day.

Someone recently posted a note that he would balance the
hone on a bottle cap. When his stroke was light enough
the hone would stay balanced the full stroke. This is a little
strict but gives you a flavor for how little pressure you
want on the razor.

Strop with care. Smooth deliberate strokes with little or
no pressure.

ATS-34 is tough and resists abrasion. You should be able
to see the steel scratch and almost frost at 4K but begin to
polish like a mirror at 8K.

Once the bevel is set stick to the 4k/8k Norton. Pyramids
could be your best friend with ATS-34 (as in plural). All of
my ATS-34 knives are difficult to sharpen because of the
abrasion resistance and hardness of the steel. So keep at
it but use a light touch. It is not wrong to work through
a pyramid sequence, shave test and do it again if needed.

One layer of tape is a good thing on steel this tough
but not required or necessary. It can let you 'feel' the
edge a little better.

Look guys I hate to beat a living horse, but first off He hasn't answered, Second off "If you know what yer doing" with the honing and the 3 layers of tape and how to bread knife it takes all of about 6 minutes to reset a bevel...and that means down to a bare spine if you wanted to...
I have gone through the trouble of doing an illustrated guide, I have done it at every single meet I have been at, live, and in person, and I have made 2 different videos of how to do it right....

I even put warnings on the video, and I have never posted them on the forum so that beginners don't think it needs to be done with ever razor out there...

But honestly it isn't hard nor time consuming, you just have to learn how if you want to...

But let's wait for Mike to answer, because I have a funny feeling he didn't "bread kinfe" it he probably just did what is called "Jointing" (killing the edge) which is way way way different...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ace

You said that you breadknifed it and got a bevel on the IK, but
you said it "didn't need much". In an earlier honing life, when I breadknifed, it took me
hours to get a bevel on 1K. I doubt that you came off the 1K with a proper edge.

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SInce there is no easy way to see the edge from here -- I have an idea that might work.

First try the magic marker test. It may be obvious that
the bevel is set or not.

If in doubt here is a way to explore the magic marker test.

Use tape and a magic marker and a 4K hone. Apply two
layers of tape and give the razor 5 not more than 10 hone strokes.
Now remove the tape and paint the edge with the magic marker.
Next give the razor one up and one back hone stroke on the same
hone. Inspect with a 40x glass. You will see a thin ink line unless
you had a bunch of slurry. Now continue honing to remove the thin
ink line. 5-10 hone strokes with tape can take 15-30 without tape to
gently hone out. I picked the 4K hone so the 1K would be handy if
needed to remove the micro bevel we installed with the tape. Be gentle
with the micro bevel step. With the spine jacked up you can remove steel
from the edge quicker than you think!

I have breadknifed razors with chips (chunks missing) on them
and use this trick to watch the bevel come home. I start with as many
as 5 layers of tape and almost set the bevel. I watch for
a very fine even ink line and when it vanishes to my
unaided eye I go to one less layer of tape. I add more fresh magic
marker and hone away again. While I cannot recommend
eBay razors with chips and chunks missing I can recommend
the marker and tape process to recover the edge and minimize
the loss of steel. In the end zero tape perfect bevel.

Yeah, breadknifing is something I approach cautiously and rarely. Anyway, I have only honed two ATS-34s and one S30V. With those I had to resort to the diamond plates. The 1200, the 8000 and then to the naniwas IIRC. I also finished with diamond paste on the SRD felt hanger. That was some tough steel IME ..... and it wasn't breadknifed. Take Glen up on his kind offer.:gl:

Glen made you an offer you should not resist. Send it to him and see the way that the fine razor that you started with does after being slapped around on the rocks by one of the best!:rock:


R

Thanks to all for your thoughts & comments! So here are some details of what I did do when I did what was done...Sit back & have a drink
Wasn't happy with the shave from this blade, so looked at the edge with a 40X loupe & saw some very small chips that I could not see with my bi-focals. (Not much to do here when I get some time off, work 7/12's except half day off every other Sunday) Got my 1K Norton & the Livi, held the stone edge ways & slowly drug the edge of the blade (using just its weight with my thumb and index finger holding the pivot) across the corner edge of the rock twice. No beer bottle available as I live in a "dry" camp - that might be part of the problem. I then put the Norton rocks into a sink of water, sat back down & again looked at the edge through the loupe, not much difference noted. Took one piece of black e-tape and placed it along the spine - I fear the controversy coming, due to my admitting that. "Breadknifing"? "Jointing"? the terms used just keep on coming. I used a black fine point Sharpie to mark the edge and then retrieved the 1K rock & with blade flat on the stone, stroked each side a couple of times - 2-handed as a guide & no pressure, looked at the edge through the loupe & was assured that the edge was evenly contacting the hone & continued to stroke straight up & down the stone. Not sure if the swarf that accumulated was steel or tape residue (next time I will put a magnet in the swarf & see). Arm hair can be shaved. Swapped stones with the sink, replaced the tape on the blade's spine and stroke, stroke, stroke on the 4K side (at all times & on all stones watching the water push ahead of the blade & also being "sucked" off when the blade is turned over while maintaining spine contact with the hone). Oh Yeah, all hones are lapped flat using a Norton lapping plate. Turned the stone over and started on the 8K side & after awhile still cuts arm hair, but no cutting whiskers. Put the razor away & relaxed for the rest of the afternoon.
I am starting to bore you & instead of going on & on, I will go on and on...
Over time I have tried using a slurry from rubbing an artificial Nagura stone on the hones & without the slurry. Never more than 1-layer of tape, times with no tape, pyramids on the 4/8K combo, I don't count strokes, circles with a little pressure on the 1K & on the combo-stone, X-strokes. Checking edge with & without the black sharpie, loupe and Baush & Lombe headband magnifier, thumb pad & nail testing (I have never managed to do the hanging hair test even with a shaving blade). Many strokes on the Chinese water stone (what is that grit anyway), Frictionite, Mastro Livi loom strop with ChrOx, Tony Miller Linen & Latigo, Tony Miller Cotton w/ChrOx & horse hide, Tony Miller practice strop on the edge of the table. Palm of my hand. Still won't shave, but nice razor & I will make it work.
Not my picture, but this is the razor:
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/...d/DSC05268.jpg

Glen, thanks for the offer! I am headed home next Friday, but will not be checking luggage this trip out so the razor will not be coming with me.

I will also try some of the suggestions in this thread.

Well, Ambrose has sent me an Email about his available strops & he says I need one, so I have other things to do.

Mike,
I hate to say this but you are doing everything right, and yes that is "Jointing" or "Killing the edge" The Coticule guys call it something else (edit: Downstroking), but they have different names for a lot of things... That isn't your problem I do the exact same thing on every single restored razor when it comes off the buffing wheels, on the corner of the stone using practically zero pressure...

From where the razor is now, I only have one hint for you, drop everything out of the equation except the Norton 4/8 and the Artificial Nagura... That Livi is hard steel so lets try coaxing the edge into it by using a slurry on the 4k and about 40 circles per side medium pressure then 40 more per side light pressure dilute out to clear water on the next 20 X strokes light pressure STOP, test if it is better then move to the 8k for I am going to guess 30 X strokes clear water, then slow way down and let the stone go to dry for about 15 more laps,,, Stop,,, Strop 25/50 linen leather and test shave

BTW leave 1 layer of tape on the razor and change it often that should keep the edge you created earlier on the stones...

If that works,,,, great then tweak it however you want,,, if not then it is going to take some real work and we can start again...

Thanks Glen! Will use your suggestion when I return to this place and will let you know how well it works.