1st attempt honing a heavy wedge Wade and Butcher - What !!!

Hi all, so I've been trying my hand at honing my own razors recently, and I've been doing OK with my hollow grinds, but I just got a big wedge wade and butcher, and though I'm pretty positive I have the edge dialed in, it is still pulling hairs and shaving most so it leaves stubble.

I'm worried: I used a buffer with polishing compound and put too much pressure and the blade got hot real fast, and I wasn't wearing gloves, had to put the blade down so I didn't burn myself. No discoloration on the blade metal, but I'm wondering, did I ruin the temper? can i get it back?

I'm stupid. As I was grinding my with 80 grit on a buffing wheel, I tried rushing it too much, and let the blade get too hot to the touch several times. I thought dunking it in water after would be ok, but now I can see: My edge will not get a good shaving edge, even after diamond paste and a finishing hone. So the question is, how do i get the temper back?

Too "Hot to the Touch" and "Blowing the Temper" are about 200 degrees F of smoking skin apart...
Did the edge turn color??? that is the first hint, and even that might not have blown the temper... Make sure it is really a temper issue and not a honing issue before you decide to trash a blade...

Now that these are together I see my first guess was probably right your first attempt to hone a wedge is probably the culprit and not the Temper....


Edit: Merged these two thread together so all the info is in one spot and it makes more sense..

Agree with Glen that if the blade did not turn colors, the temper is probably alright. One of the metallurgists will chime in, i'm sure. The other thing is that you are honing a wedge and depending on the shape it was in before the buffers and greaseless along with the fact that it was on the buffers for a while, will make it a pain to hone usually. It may take a long long while just to set the bevel. Was there a lot of wear on the spine before the buffers and was that wear the same on both sides? Sometimes a pic can be very helpful.

Have fun,

Lynn

Turning the steel yellow or pale brown won't stop the blade shaving well. That is only what someone must have done in the manufacturing process (though I'm not sure at which particular colour they stop), in order to stop its being even more brittle than razors actually are. I think that to show up on a first shave (rather than not doing many shaves before needing attention), it would have to be a bluish purple.

The trouble is, buffing or even handling remove that colour like lightning, which is why we don't try for a lovely royal blue with all the springier steel objects around us. Perhaps it was there until removed. Rehardening is a very tricky business, and likely to cause distortion. Lots of razors are hardened and tempered while quite thick at the edge, with wet-gringing to an edge to follow.

The other kind of harm excessively heavy buffing can do, is that the mop and polish curling around the edge rounds if off. You should try honing it with a fine and very flat stone (or 1500 paper glued to plate glass, if you will risk a bit of work but no real damage to learn the truth.) You would then see if the texture of the honing goes all the way to the edge. A cheapo Chinese 60x magnified with its own tiny LED lamp, from eBay, would be handy for this.

thanks for the reassuring words all, I was really worried that this blade was hopeless.
-the edge did not turn color
-the wedge had very little hone wear before the buffing, but I took off a fair amount of metal to get the pitting out.
-sorry I don't have the ability to post pics right now, but it is a mid-late 1800's Wade and butcher, 7/8" full wedge blade.
-the blade has a big smile, and it is also warped.
-rolling x strokes have produced a uniform bevel all along the length of both sides of the blade.

The main reason why I first jumped to a temper issue, aside from it not being dialed in to shave ready, is that it was very quick and easy to set the bevel, right off the grinding wheels, much easier in fact than even my hollow razors.

Now I took this thing, using 2 pieces of tape, through 325 DMT and 1000 norton, and it cut arm hairs all the way down the blade with just that. Then to the 4000, then the 8000, then the diamond paste, and its like it didn't get much better than after the initial bevel set, even after all that. I even put a third piece of tape on it and ran it over the 8000 50 times each side, back to the diamond paste, and still, not much better. What am i doing wrong here?

About a year ago I honed my first wedge. It was one of the most frustrating processes of my entire life. It was also an old, old W and B. I learned a couple things. The bevel took forever. Then I did 4 and 8k, but got tonnes of microchipping. Stubear came to the rescue on the forums and said that he found the old sheffield's really didn't like synthetic hones. I got in touch with another local member, and borrowed his coticule.

The wedge was honed and smooth within 30 minutes.

Is there someone in your area who may be able to do the same thing with you?

Reading your second post, my first thought (other than the coticule thought) was that you haven't spent enough time on the 4k. Try going back to the 4, and doing frequent arm/leg hair tests to judge the ease of cutting.

I hope this helps a bit :)

If one layer of tape and 50 laps on the 8k didn't make a difference in final result, than you didn't set the bevel right, or you technique is not good yet. Do some more laps and testing on the 1k and 4k, and only move on if the edge is good.

I'm going to say your bevel isn't truly set. I've pulled wedges directly off the buffers and they could shave arm hair, but they certainly didn't have a bevel (I know it's weird, but I've had this happen). First use the TNT to make sure you actually have a clean bevel the entire length. A small microscope could help a lot as well (30x or so). If you are coming off the buffers it can take a long time to set the bevel on old wedges.

From what you're saying though it really sounds like you don't have your bevel set before moving up in your hones.

That would, in its effect, be very similar to an accidentally rounded bevel as I described it. If you search on eBay, under "60x microscope", you will find scores of a very useful little magnifier with its own LED light. But if you don't have one, you can hold the razor with its back and spine against a piece of plate glass, and see if a piece of aluminium foil tends to slip under instead of slip over.

I really did some damage to the first heavy wedge I honed. I put a very uneven bevel, scratching all over the blade, lots of honewear. I haven't attempted a heavy wedge since...

I have to agree with Maxi, look out for microchipping, Sheffield steel is notorious for it, never use the thumbnail test after you start honing, you are only destroying what you have thus far accomplished. Try it with out the diamond paste, that stuff can be very aggressive. After the 1k, the softer naturals are the way to go with these.

+1. If you can't get a reasonable shaving edge with a Coti or BB either you're doing something wrong or that dog won't hunt.

Most likely this is due to you not having honed wedges before. There is a lot more 'meat' to a wedge, and more material that needs to be removed. Especially if you have restored it and the area around the edge will be rounded.

Here is a imple test: hold the blade towards a light source so that the light reflects to your eyes via the blade face. The edge should point towards the light, and run from left to right. Now slowly turn the bladewith the blade face towards your body. Kind like the spoiler on a Porche. Continue the movement until the edge is point at you instead of the light source. Keep a close eye on the very edge itself. If at one point in your movement, you see sparkling light along the edge, then that means the bevels are nottouching at the edge.

If this is the case, then only more honing at 1000 grit will help, until there are no reflections anymore. Before you are at that point, neither a finishing hone nor diamond spray will make any difference.

well guys, I figured it out (finally!)

This is what was needed:

more laps on the 4000 grit norton. Since it is slightly warped, I had to section the blade off according to how it laid flat, and do like 50 circles each side for each section. Example: 50 each side for the first half inch of the heel, 50 for the first quarter in front of the heel, 50 in the ball of the foot area behind the toe, and finally 50 at the toe, followed by 50 rolling x-strokes each side, then 50 each side on the finisher, and 5 laps on the diamond grit strop. Never shaved with a wedge before. It's sooooo different feeling, just the weight, and the smiling edge helps get under my jawline and neck SO much easier than a flat blade, especially ones with a point. I love it! Definitely a learning curve, though!

Glad you were able to tackle your wedge. It's a learning process for sure. Have fun with it!

Great job, and perseverence man!! What a job, eh?

Very happy for you bloke!!! Outstanding job if seeing a job through to it's end,

Have many a great shave with your Wedge and a BBS to boot!!

me.

Great job hanging there and getting it done. My next project is a first time for me Tally Ho near wedge with a big smile. This info will no doubt help save me some frustration. Thanks all.

Thanks for this thread! I've been struggling to get my new-to-me Wade & Butcher sharp, and would never have thought that a synthetic stone could have anything to do with it (I'm using a Norton combo). I'll also take my time with bevel setting, but I'm a bit nervous about removing too much steel, especially from the spine, where it's already a bit uneven.

I'm also thinking that a stiffer strop or paddle strop might be better suited for this beast. Last time I stropped it, the edge was worse than off the 8k, so this time, I honed as lightly as I could and then shaved directly. It was ok once, but then not ideal the second day (on tough 1-day stubble). Had to clean up with a backup razor... that's a neat experience in itself, switching from a heavy blade to one with different steel, lighter grind, etc.

Anyway, this forum rocks. :rock:

Cheers.

All strops are stiff if you lay them on a flat surface. It is worth trying before chasing a problem with new equipment.

You are wise, Caledonian!

Ok, Caledonian, I have tried your non-hanging strop suggestion for two shaves now, and while I find it awkward to keep the dang thing from bunching under the razor (holding ceach end with fingers, knees, etc), I have managed to have two successively better shaves with my W&B. My strop looks a bit worse for wear though (it was smooth and shiny and now has swipe marks going lengthwise). In any case, the draw is completely different when laying flat (much, much firmer) and the blade seems to reflect it.

I'll keep working on my honing and stropping techniques. Thanks again to everybody on this forum for helping the newbies.

I can't help but want a coticule now, and maybe a big leather paddle strop.