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Another post made me remember that I have been debating a 2" vs 3" norton for a while. The only reason I can see for getting the 3" is because I can hone straight down instead of the need to use the X pattern (for most of my razors at least)
Without starting a war here, which method do you believe gives you the best results with disregard to the type of razor or type of steel.
I wish I got a 2" Norton right off the bat. I keep worrying about overhoning the toe with this 3" monstrosity. I'll probably get the 2" eventually and sell this one, but I am not that financially fluid atm.
I had a similar problem with overhoning the heel. Joe Lerch suggested putting the fingers of the hand that does not hold the handle on the spine of the blade and guide it over the hone in the X-pattern. I use two or three fingers slightly spread apart. It worked for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
Above in Joe's own words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
The x-pattern on narrow hones is what eliminated that worry for me. Those Japanese slip-stones had to be held together with one hand to achieve a flat honing surface and they cut so slowly that they gave me lots of one-handed honing practice. The problem with using a wide stone with the X pattern is that the toe travels a longer distance over the hone than the heel does. A 2" wide hone gives you more control over this issue.
I voted straight down even though I often use a slight X motion drawing only the heel off the hone. I do this because the heel naturally recieves more and even pressure being so close to the hand whereas the toe has less and more uneven pressure from that pressure diminishing slightly and tending to be less consistent further down the edge. This is why I'm not worried about over honing the tip. I believe good honing technique whether on a smaller or larger hone will deliver consistent results along the edge while bad technique on any stone can cause problems like warping or over wearing a specific part of the edge. At first blush you might think a 2" hone would put the belly of the edge on the stone longer than the heel or the tip and thus wear out the belly more. That's not necessarily true though. More has to do with how you controll the eveness of pressure along the edge. This is your primary concern and should be the focus of your attention. With the 2" hone, there's more to worry about what with part of the blade being off the hone at any time. The 3" hone give you the chance to make instant corrections in rolling pressure without worying about how far the edge is sitting on or off the hone which is why it is recommended for new honers. I'm sure a very experienced honer would have little or no trouble compensating on a 2" hone, but 3" is recommended for your first stone for good reason. I believe Lynn uses a 3".
X
I voted for the X pattern but I have never really tried the straight down method. I just might try it to see what it's like.
Well if Lynn uses it....Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
I was leaning towards the 3", especially because as we found out in another post that makes Xman unnecessary.....:D :roflmao
Can't say, never used the straight down motion, I feel that it would only work for me if I had a hone wider than the length of the blade. As I don't know I abstained.
If you want to get another stone, fine, but this rationale doesn't make sense. This kind of uneven honing is more likely with a narrow. If you push across the stone carefully it can't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
Now, if you insist on the x-pattern, then yes, you will overhone the top part of the blade. That's because the further up a spot is on the blade, the more time it spends on the hone. But you wil have the same problem with a narrower hone unless it's width is less than half the blade length. In fact you'll be honing the middle of the blade the most, which eventually gives you a frown, the worst shape.
When I was learning on 2" hones, I made a special effort to make sure that every part of the blade travels the same distance under the same pressure on the hone. Now it comes naturally to me. Since I have both options, here's what I do with a relatively dull blade:
1) 40 straight down passes with the heel leading on the N4k 3"
2) 30 straight down passes on the N8k
2.5) Now depending on where I am with the blade, I may do a few more passes on each, until I see that I am finally getting somerhere.
3) Then I take it to the Japanese 4k/8k slip-stones and do a variation of an x-pattern pyramid a couple of times. I do these until the razor is shave ready, usually 2-3.
4) I take them back to the 8k norton and do a few passes but this time at x-pattern, just to give the edge a final polish, as I found N8k to be a bit finer than the Japanese 8k. I do this with a VERY light pressure, so I remove almost no metal.
5) Finally I MAY give it a few final passes on the Coticule, but I haven't noticed a marked improvement over the N8k, so I am a bit disinclined to go trough this step these days.
When I am refreshing a blade, I just do a couple of x-passes on the N8k. However every 3rd refreshment, I do a an actual pyramid on the Japanese stones just to keep the edge from developing a frown. They are slow cutters, so they don't remove much metal but they remove enough to keep the edge straight.
I refresh an edge frequently (whenever stropping doesn't restore its keenness) with a very fine hone (10-12K), like a Swaty. It's only 3-5 swipes. This keeps the razor going for a long time without honing. I have some that have gone over a year. But I do have a rather large rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
What's the difference between honing and refreshing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Refreshing the edge is just removing a bit of metal with a fine hone to get it to cut nicely again. However, after a while that makes the bevel deteriorate...
That's when you take it back to rougher (4/8k) hones to re-establish it. A single pyramid will usually do the trick and then some. Obviously it removes more metal than a refreshment.
Joe, my rotation is rather smaller than yours. Currently at 6, but for a long time I only had 2 in my rotation, so I had to do it more frequently. Every 60 shaves or so, with refreshing both blades after about 20 shaves combined. These are aproximate as I also refresh the edge as it deteriorates, whether it's after 7 or 12 shaves, but I do try to do it uniformly as it's a time saver.
Refreshing is honing of course, but it's just a few quick swipes on a fine hone to restore keenness when the razor starts to pull a little. It allows you to keep the razor in top shaving condition all the time, working on it for an instant, with an indefinite time between real honing sessions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Draw the line where you want, but I would look at a honing session as any time you specifically undertake to do significant work on a razor. I do the refreshing while I'm shaving, at the sink. It's done like stropping before or in the middle of a shave, depending on need.
This is what I'm not so sure about now. I'm thinking that maybe you really are doing the same thing as honing periodically but just spreading it out. Logically, if the refreshing over a year took off the same amount of material as honing 4 times a year, you would be at the same point at the end of the year. The difference is that with refreshing you always have the best edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
I now have a total of about 125 razors. About 25 I bought new and had to do minimum or no honing. Another 15 or so I bought used but shave ready. I'd say 85-90 I bought used and restored. Maybe 10 of them are wasted, the rest being shavable. This has all been over the last 18 months, or so. I haven't had to hone or re-hone any of those razors. I'm guessing that I've used my favorites 40 times.
I would love to do an experiment with one razor, but I don't want to give up the other razors for that period of time.
I'm with Joe on this. I don't see how refreshing an edge (if done properly) could cause the bevel to deteriorate. If you are honing improperly, you can certainly damage the edge. If your refreshing of the edge does not bring it back to the initial post honing condition and you continue to shave, refresh, shave, refresh...and with each iteration you never bring the edge back to the initial point where it is truely keen, then you are just accepting a progressively less sharp razor. However, even if this is the case, it is the shaving, not the refreshing that is causing a deterioration in the shaving edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
All of this of course, assumes I've understood you correctly...:confused: ...highly unlikely as I've not slept in three days.
Ed
Just my two cents here.
The best overall hone for the beginner is probably the 3".
That being said I have found that narrower hones definitely have their place in a persons honing tool kit. The size I like the best for a blade with a smile or warping or an uneven spine is approx1 1/4" or 1 1/2". I also vastly prefer single grit hones that are 1" thick or more for the same uses.