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Hey,
As far as I know, Chinese 12k might not be the best stone there is but for many it's the ultimate finishing stone.
Well, I've just finished honing my Dovo and as a result I noticed the edge seems to be dull? When I now compare part of the edge that had direct contact with hone surface to the ones on the blade's ends it's more satin. I've had some problems to pop a hanging hair now.
I used my C12k wet with slurry, giving long, steady passes. Can hones vary that much?
I have two c12k's, both bought from the same source. One of them leaves an edge that would fall between 6 and 8k. The other one leaves an edge that is as fine as any thuringen. There is a great variance among all of the Chinese stones. To get a great one is almost a matter of luck.
This could totally be off mark, but it may be the razor and not the hone.
I've got a new Dovo that shaves just fine. It was professionally honed, and once it started tugging I tried to give it a touch up on a barber's hone I got (which seems to be pretty fine grit, to me), followed by a CrOx pasted stropm but it hasn't been easy. Every time I hit the razor with that hone, it seemed to make the edge more dull. Long story short it's taken a LOT of effort to get the thing back to shave-ready, trying different numbers of strokes (usually way more than I'd expect) on both the hone and the strop (usually way fewer than I'd expect). I'm now at the point where it works, and the razor is sharper, but it's still not great.
This morning I decided to try and touch up a vintage Henckels I have. Literally 10 light passes on the hone and it's popping hairs again no problem. The only difference I can tell between the two situations are the razors.
So maybe your Dovo just doesn't respond well to this kind of hone?
Slurry reduces the grit size so a 12k with heavy slurry may only be 7-8k.
Slurry also has a rounding effect on the edge. It's almost like dragging the edge through very fine sand that adds a polish to the sides of the bevel but rounds the very edge of the bevel off.
What you need to do is start with a light slurry and dilute to plain water. That way you'll get the polish on the edge but honing with plain water will keep the sharpness on the edge too.
Give that a try and see how that helps! :)
+1 to Stubear's slurry technique. Heavy slurry will dull a blade.
What's already said. I did a razor on a C12K earlier today, and started with slurry, doing 5-6 regular strokes, dip the razor, 5-6 x-strokes, dip again, 4 rounds of that and then about the same with water only, ended up with a very sharp edge that was über smooth.
Okay, as soon as I get back home I will give it a few more passes. When I applied slurry it didn't feel like 12k hone but rather something far down below 10 in my opinion, it just sounds not like polishing but rather aggresive honing.
When I use my PHIG, I only use water; no slurry.
I canīt recommend the people's hones own slurry either. It is quite coarse and leaves worse scratches than medium japanese naturals.
I could indeed recommend a medium or fine slurry stone made out of a japanese natural, and slurry the PHIG with that.
If I where you I would try to finish my razor on the best stone I currently have (hopefully something around the 8k mark) and
put the razor on the C12k for another 40 laps. If you are not yet satisfied, add another layer of tape and do 10-20 more laps and see if it works
btw. how is the condition of the surface of your PHIG? Did you finish the stone yourself, or use it like it was?
It came pre-lapped by vendor (open_razor). I didn't touch it since then. It's nearly flat with slight curve in the middle. I could sometimes feel like if the hone was "catching" the razor, the passes weren't smooth. And now after your post i'm coming to conclusion that it needs lapping. Is 1000g sandpaper enugh for that type of stone?
1000 grit is enough to finish the stone, but if you can actually see or feel that it isn't flat, you should start with more aggressive paper to save time/paper/elbows.Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
On the other hand...
I can get the same from my Chinese stone when the razor isn't quite ready for it. Dropping back down to 8k for a bit often fixes it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
I am a defender (or inventor? I don't really know.) of the theory that the PHIG performs best (if at all) when lapped to perfection.
I came across this about three years ago when I bought my first PHIG and everybody was raving how good or bad it was.
I didnīt get good results with it until I finished the surface. When you slide your fingernail across the stone and you feel a little unsmoothness,
youīre not where you want to be with the PHIG. It should feel as smooth as glass.
I recommend to lapp the stone thoroughly. This will take time, energy and a lot of sandpaper, because these will wear out quickly.
Get 240, 320, 400, 600 and your 1000. That should be good for the start.
First step is to make it flat.
The second step is to erase all scratches and high spots from the prevoius papers on the sandpaper.
Now for a reason I do not know coming from a 1k sandpaper the stone still does not shine or feel as smooth as glass.
Thatīs where I take out my old BBW (credit card size) and run it across the PHIG for hours (literally).
This can be done by other hard and fine naturals, too I guess. You want the PHIG to be like a mirror and feel like marble.
Then it performs at its best. This has worked for me twice now and seems to work for others as well
The lapping from open_razor is far from perfect, both my c12k's are from him, follow Lesslemmings advice :)Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
And be patient, it takes a looooong time to lap them.
Yeah reading your posts on this is why I'll keep polishing mine with BBW. It's already pretty smooth and performs well, pretty blown away by how smooth an edge I got off it really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
I agree. I get the best performance by going up to 2000 grit with mine, and ditto for the Dragon's Tongue. Never thought to use a BBW on them, though - nice tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Two shaves in with my C12K, I'd say they can play with the big(expensive) boys if you get the right stone.
Ok so I've just finished honing my razor. I first lapped the C12K on sandpaper first 120g, 400g, 600g, 1000g and finally 2000g. It's now flat but still trying to make the surface more smooth, to give it that glass-like look. I honed on wet stone with no slurry and still it's too aggressive. I can see marks on the spine leaved by that hone.
I also cleaned and lapped that hone I was talking about here. WOW this one's superb. Far more smooth than this C12K. For the last stage I used an old German prewar Arkansas hone used for optic instruments. I'm now running that Thuringians against the C12K to polish them a bit more. IMO 1000g sandpaper is not enough for finishing lapping process.
Don't forget that the grit rating for those chinese stones is approximate. There's a few people that refer to them as PHIGs (People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit) for that reason. Yours might just be a coarse/fast one.
Yup that might be it. Thank you guys for clearing things up!
It might be it, but it doesnīt necessarily have to be. Give it a try and see for yourself if itīs a bad PHIG or just the surface :)
Yeah, for the process of polishing you need a harder stone for it to be effective. That BBW would be nice, it's very hard stone isnt it?
The BBW is a fairly hard stone. It does not play in the league of some Asagis (j-nats) or Arkansas, but itīs fairly hard.
Obiously the BBW is not nearly as hard as the PHIG, since the slurry is absolutely purple and it does take awhile.
So I think other naturals would work very well. Maybe even some synthetics might work.
A barber hone would probably work, as well
This applies to Jnats too as far as I am concerned. To prep a Jnat finisher for use I go from worn off 320 DMT, trough Coticule , to another Jnat of similar hardness. Also constant use of fine tomonagura makes sure the surface is very smooth at all times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
So basically, the idea is to make hone surface glaze, is that correct? Does that apply to every type polishing hone? What does Shapton 12k look like, is it glassy or matt?
Well basically thatīs what I do, even though I wasnīt aware of it until now.
I lap my finishers on my DMT 325 and 600.
The 600 leaves a nice mirror and a good, dense surface.
The Shapton 12k shows a good mirror, but is kind of matte at the same time.
Thatīs because of its milky colour. But yes, the Shapton 12k reflects images quite good
I was touching up some blades yesterday and ran the non-glossy side against the C-nat to see if I could grab a little slurry, and the Swaty left a nice light-brown trail of slurry on the PHIG. I diluted to water, and it left a great edge on my blades. That was, of course, with using a bit of pressure to draw a slurry, but I'd imagine using light pressure would give a nice, fine finish on the natural. I've had surprisingly successful edges with the first and only PHIG I've bought. Yes, it's drastically slow and yes, I'll be buying a faster finisher in the future, but for what I use it for, it's got a nice bang-for-the-buck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
That's interesting. I applied slurry on mine PHIG using another C12k slurry stone but it felt like low grade stone, it left visible grooves on the spine and on the bevel. When I ran fingernail it's not polishing but getting matt instead. Even my Esher lapped on 2k sandpaper doesn't leave the bevel polished - it fails on HHT. I guess I'm going to save some more money and go for Shapton 12k :)
In all likelihood its not a problem that getting another stone will resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
I suppose its possible that you have a dud for a PHIG, but it's really unlikely that you have a did Escher. To have both of them be not usable as finishers... The Shapton will probably disappoint as well.
It seems no one wants to go there...But is it possible it's his "honing"....?
And "HHT" forget about HHT, unless you have a standard test hair, the results can vary. Dovo uses sythetic hair or something at there factory prior to sending out their blades, Check Youtube. Each razor passes the HHT on a standard "Test" hair, not human.
Shave with the razor, See how it feels against your skin, If you keep honing until it passes the HHT, you'll have a Toothpick for a razor. Shave....!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ACJrAI3SxM
About 4:25 in or so.....
If a perfectly mirrored bevel is what you are looking for, the Shapton 12k is a good option.Quote:
I guess I'm going to save some more money and go for Shapton 12k
Of course you need to consider two things. First is that the Shapton 12k requires a good surface finish. I prefer lapping mine with the DMT Fine.
Secondly the Shapton 12k wonīt produce a mirror by itself. The surface needs to be free of deeper scratchers, before you hit the Shapton 12k.
Many natural stones produce a matte finish, probably due to different sizes of particles, producing small irregular scratches that scatter light, rather than reflect it.
Thatīs not a bad thing per se! But if your natural stone is of a good quality (i.e. it will not immediately release particles when used with water only),
and the finish is mirrored already (like from the Naniwa Super 8.000) acouple of strokes, somewhat around 30-40 should get you where you want to be edge wise,
without compimising the polish of the bevel. It takes a bit practise but can be done.
Neither my vintage thuringian nor my Shoubudani produce scratches if used cautiously. But non of them actually produces a mirror, if it is not already there.
I suggest you set the bevel on your razor and polish it on synthetics until the bevel shines and the razor shaves sufficiently.
After that hit your Esher (without slurry) and see if it improves your edge. Check every 10 strokes.
HHT works great for me, but may not for you. Try different test methods to verify the quality of the edge
Btw. just to clarify what I said this morning:
The surface of the stone Chinese 12k, as well as the Shapton 12k is a mirror.
The Chinese 12k when used cautioisly may be able to hold a good mirrored edge, but that was not what I meant.
Of course it will not produce a mirror on a bevel that is not yet mirrored
Thanks for your last reply Lesslemming, very useful information for a newb as I am. And so I honed today again, I started from C12k with slurry diluting it with water during honing process. Next I gave it a few passes on Eshner and finally on Arkansas to get that mirror look I sought. The last "honing station" was CrOx balsa paddle. The spine literally became mirror-like surface and the bevel very smooth. Apparently the razor couldn't pass HHT and the shaving was very uncomfortable. I figured I could use Allegro paddle. It's a one side strop and the other some kind of synthetic hone. It's surface is more aggressive than both C12k and Eshner but apparently after 30 passes the razor finally passed HHT on thinnest hair I could get. But the bevel and spine lost its mirror look. Now I wonder why using higher grade hones like Eshner and CrOx that give mirror-like surface to a bevel make a razor quite dull compared to honing on lower grade hone.
HHT can be deceiving, on a coarse stone you will have sawtooth edges that can pass a HHT test but are terrible to shave with. Same with the mirror edge, it looks very nice but doesn't always mean a perfect edge. If I use a Coticule and CrOx, I'll have a REALLY nice edge but probably not mirrored. My best tests are actually shaving or the arm/leg hair test where you are just removing the tips of the hair.
What are you using to define "sharp" or "dull"?
From reading, it looks like the HHT and whether the bevel looks mirror smooth?
What stones do you have other than the PHIG and the Escher?
I went back and read most of this thread. I think you razor is not ready to be on a finishing stone.
and... FWIW, the two stones I have gotten from open_razor have required very little lapping in comparison to ones that I've gotten elsewhere.
Although I would not say it is good, bad, or even unnecessary, but honestly I have never used anything higher then a 325 either a Shapton DGLP or a DMT 325 to lap stones and create slurry...
PHIG's are like any other Natural stone, there are variations between them, anytime you hear some people praise a stone and others cuss a stone you can usually bet one of two things are going on either there are new honers involved in the conversation or one of the stone being discussed is a natural stone...
Here is some info about PHIG stones... http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...nese-hone.html
HNSB,
After final polishing on CrOx balsa paddle I did HHT but hair was just sliding on the edge, it wasn't even vibrating giving that specific sound and real shaving was uncomfortable. It felt like the razor wasn't cutting the hair but pulling them instead.Quote:
What are you using to define "sharp" or "dull"?
I also used Arkansas stone, an old German stone used for optical instruments. Very smooth, giving very polished edge.Quote:
What stones do you have other than the PHIG and the Escher?
I thought about it. Now I'm looking for some cheap old razor I can work on and try many different techniques.Quote:
I went back and read most of this thread. I think you razor is not ready to be on a finishing stone.
Well, obviously you do not have all the stones necessary for a restore, or even a bevelset.
You only have three stones, all of them rather in the finishing range.
Why donīt you invest in one of the recommended honing systems, like a Norton 4k/8k with a 1k for bevelsetting.
This way you can be sure that the stones you use are prefectly fine.
If the edge coming of the Norton 8k is sufficiently you can hit your three finishers and see if your edge improves,
and considering the Esher they should do so significantly!