Need help honing my Filly

Hello Gents,

I'm doing something wrong, and I can't figure it out. I have 4 blades in my normal rotation - Dovo INOX Micarta, Dovo Bismarck, Filly DT #13, and a Craftsman ERN. I had been sending them to a honemeister for the first year and then I picked up a 4k/8k and a Naniwa 12k. All of the bevels were set by a honemeister. Aside from the Filly, the blades are amazing after refreshes on the 12k, or light pyramids on the 4k/8k...but the Filly is killing me. That's the background.
I've been refreshing the edge on the Naniwa 12k and a CrOx'd strop about every 7 shaves or so. Yesterday was the second time I'd actually put them through a pyramid on the 4k/8k. 1:5,3:5,5:5,3:5,1:5,1:5 (4k:8k). The stones were thoroughly soaked before use, and I'd lapped them the last time I used them. I finished them on an SRD paddle strop with a .5M diamond, then .5M CrOx. Finally I'll put them on my regular strop before use. I used tape during the first pyramid, but after reading various/conflicting posts about using tape I decided that I would go tapeless this time. I've also had various results using the HHT, which I've also read is a less than reliable method of testing sharpness.
I was excited to see if I'd "fixed" the Filly, so I used it last night...and it was terrible on my neck and cheeks. It had a scratchy rough feeling (which it did NOT have after returning from Max, but it DID have after my first refresh). I'll try another blade tonight, but I feel pretty sure they'll be back to their magically smooth feeling.
What can I be doing wrong with the Filly? I'm willing to send it back to the honemeister, but can he look at it and tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I also just read something that makes total sense, but I'd never considered - soaking the stones before lapping them...duh!! It makes sense to soak them and let them warp before lapping. I'll try that next time, but considering that the other blades turn out perfectly I'm not sure that this is the reason for my troubles. Someone has also mentioned that the Filly's SilverSteel takes more work to bring back...maybe I need a bigger pyramid?

Thanks,
John

My vote goes for not well established bevel.

I am sure the problem is not the stone if it is properly lapped and prepared for use.

I could not catch from the post if the Fili was bevel set by a honemeister, but it is possible the bevel is not there yet, especially if you started with tape and then removed it.
Tape is personal thing but there is no difference between tape or no tape for the final result, so removing it did not increase your chance for better edge, however it is possible you have not gotten the bevel reset and there lies your problem.
If this is the case you need to spend some more time on the 4k , a means of looking at the bevels like a scope or loupe, will be greatly helpful in diagnosing the problem.

My advise would be to go back to the begining and set the bevel again and rehone it. Also if you're going to use tape then you should use it all the tape all way through.

It's obviously the pyramid you did. not trying to be snide, just want to make sure you understand that. Since the razor feels rough, in your words, try smoothing it out. Take the highest grit you have and work on the edge in circular strokes, then with a x pattern for a while, like 60 strokes or a few minutes. Then look at the bevel closely and see if your getting the entire bevel, then shave with it and see if it's smoother. The problem is you honed it WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much on the pyramid, probably made some small mistakes on the way, and then likely didn't finish it well either.

I like to teach with analogies. it's a bad habit of mine, but here it was like cooking. you got a turkey that you thought was a little dry. You corrected this by cooking it an additional 17 hours, then eating some of it and found it was still dry. What you really needed to do was marinate it (with a finishing stone only).

so now the edge has been honed to death, so please try and stop doing that. the only thing slightly worse than using a 4k now would be to just pummel it with a hammer. that would only be slightly worse.

Using only a high grit hone backhone, smooth out, polish, circle hone, whatever you need to do to get the edge smooth again. by this I mean with a corrected bevel. Then finish with about 6 to 10 x pattern strokes on the same high grit stone.

That should help improve it a little depending on the extent of damage done by the pyramid.

imagine a 4k stone as the razor equivalent of running the razor over a curbside. What you need now is a 10k equivalent mixed with a glassy like finishing stone mixed together to sharpen a delicate edge, without causing damage. Any more damage that is. Don't go out and buy another hone, just open your mind to the point imtrying to make.

this was all by phone, so sorry about the spelling.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It's obviously the pyramid you did. The problem is you honed it WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much on the pyramid, probably made some small mistakes on the way, and then likely didn't finish it well either.

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Alan,

I did a quick check in the wiki, and it looks like the OP was simply following the prescribed routine for a conservative honing pyramid (from the wiki: " a suggestion for a straight razor that is almost keen. It shaves but it pulls at the whiskers"). In fact he did quite a few less strokes than it recommends.....
I'm not saying your advice is null and void, but I am suggesting that if the pyramid recommendations are causing more harm than good perhaps we should look at amending the wiki? :shrug:

For the OP,

I had two thoughts. First, due to the excessive touchup routine in addition to your pyramid your edge may be crumbling as a result. Second, since you removed the tape you are technically altering the bevel shape. But instead of a steeper angle you are cutting shallower, so it's possible you were only polishing the sides of the bevel rather than extending all the way to the very edge. Just my $0.02

First of all - You guys are awesome, this community is always VERY helpful!

Secondly, I'll provide some of the info that I left out. The 4k/8k stone was purchased from SRD, and Lynn has posted several times that he always removes the rough edge of the Norton stones before sending them out. I'm not sure if "removing the rough edge" is the same as "lapping it flat" - but I've lapped them each using 320 then 400 grit 3M wet/dry sand paper on a granite floor tile before the first use. As I mentioned before, though, I did NOT soak them before lapping them the first time but I'll be sure to do that before I use them again. All of the blades had their bevels set by a honemeister before use - all but the Craftsman were NIB...well, technically the Fili would've been NOS.

Tape - I used tape only once, during the first of only 2 pyramid attempts I've tried. I really wanted to protect the spine and minimize hone wear. However, the more I read the less it makes sense to use tape. I understand that taping the spine prevents the hone from wearing it down; however that wear is necessary/preferable, as the height of the spine directly affects the angle at which the edge contacts the hone - which affects bevel length and height. Someone also mentioned that this may deceive a future buyer regarding the true amount of honing a blade has undergone. So, I won't be using tape anymore.

AFDavis11 - I'm so scared of messing up my blades..especially the Fili and Craftsman, I was lucky to get a hold of them, I definitely don't want to mess them up. The pyramid approach listed in the wiki (as pointed out by Ryan82) has. IMHO, a very aggressive regimen for bringing an existing edge back to shaving greatness. The pyramid I listed above is pretty light by comparison. Do you feel that the bevel has been ruined? I'll have to read (and re-read) the circular stroke approach for smoothing the edge..it seems simple, but I'm having trouble imagining the mechanics of the stroke in my head..I assume it's very light and counter-clockwise. I haven't heard of "back honing" - it sounds like a stropping lap performed on a stone. I can learn by analogies, so feel free to spread them about.

mainaman, johnmrson - Thanks for your input. If it really is a shot bevel I think I may just send it back to the honemeister and have him reset the bevel..I'd really hate to mess it up more. I don't have a loupe handy, but I think I can get a hold of one.

Ryan82 - Is my touch-up routine excessive? I've tried to be as light as possible. I only hit the naniwa once I feel the razor pulling, and then it's only 10 laps. Yesterday was only my second attempt at using the 4k/8k - I'd already performed 3 or 4 12k touchups since the last pyramid use.

Geonjay,

Nothing wrong with the bevel. You have returned the razor to it's original issue, but technically you have removed quite a bit of metal in the process. Hopefully, at least you can see my point if the razor is essentially right back where you started at?

Many people over the years continue to recommend more and more 4k strokes, and for gross corrections there is nothing wrong with that. And "set the bevel" has turned into a honing battle cry. But often we see signs that the bevel is set. Though no real damage often occurs the objective in honing straight razors should always be to remove the least amount of metal as possible. many beginners overlook the x pattern as a method of lowering the honing action, vice increasing it. it does so little good to use gentle, x pattern strokes on a nice high grit hone and then tear into it with a 4k, unless that is what it really needs.

the only thing you might have damaged is the expensive bevel balance that was applied originally.

But, we need to focus on and address the actual problem. Please consider my original advice and let me know how that goes first, the we can tear into that poor unsuspecting bevel later.

You've got the right idea on both methods of smoothing. Try to picture the bevel now, just like before as being a little torn , covered with 4k gouges in the side of it. It will shave a little rough. Now all you need to do is remove them ALL and apply 8k gouges in there place. Simple right?

Ryan, I think that prescription is over zealous for a beginner, but I think smarter men than me wrote that part of the Wiki, and that approach does work. Not as often with beginners as with pros, but there are other less violent options that honers should be willing to try first. Fundamentally, the delicateness of a razors edge must be consistently made clear. Razors have feelings too. :-)

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Originally Posted by geonjay

Ryan82 - Is my touch-up routine excessive? I've tried to be as light as possible. I only hit the naniwa once I feel the razor pulling, and then it's only 10 laps. Yesterday was only my second attempt at using the 4k/8k - I'd already performed 3 or 4 12k touchups since the last pyramid use.

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Well, after rereading your original post your regular touch up routine sounds about right - 10 laps on a Nani 12k should get her going again. It was your routine where you went 4k/8k pyramid--12k--diamond paste--chrome ox that had me thinking that your edge could be breaking down (BTW, you didn't add how many laps you were doing on each). A Naniwa 12k is usually all that's needed to refresh an edge, but if you're so inclined to drop down to the Norton 4/8 I would strongly recommend stopping at the 8k level and test shave. If you're doing your part on the hones you should get a good shave off the 8k. If not you have to go back to the Norton; if yes, go ahead with the higher grit stones and/or pastes to further refine your edge. (edit - I should add that this is if your edge has deteriorated past the point where a 12k hone will be effective - always try your highest grit first)

How long do you find you edges last anyway?

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Ryan, I think that prescription is over zealous for a beginner, but I think smarter men than me wrote that part of the Wiki, and that approach does work. Not as often with beginners as with pros, but there are other less violent options that honers should be willing to try first. Fundamentally, the delicateness of a razors edge must be consistently made clear. Razors have feelings too. :-)

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+1. Though I've never had any serious issues with the pyramid method, I did get acquainted with the system later in my SR shaving career, where I already had a feeling for honing. It never occured to me that beginners could be doing more harm than good. But as Lynn always says, less is more (and I suppose in this case better). :)

I've now shaved with the other razors...all were less than smooth. So it's obvious that I'm mis-honing the blades...AARRGGH!!

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by this I mean with a corrected bevel

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What do you mean by this AFDavis11? I understand the circular stokes, followed by the X pattern..but I'm not sure how the bevel is to be corrected. Will the circular strokes do this? I won't be able to try this until the weekend...I'm going to study up on the circular strokes approach.

I think you would benefit greatly from a 10X loupe. They can be found at photo shops and maybe even Walmart. I think the TNT and other tests are fine for evaluating bevels, but I usually bypass them and just observe the edge/bevel with a 10X loupe and a very bright, Halogen study lamp. If I evaluate the edge under that light source and see no reflections coming from the edge, then I am satisfied with the bevel. If the bevel and edge cannot cut light (you can see reflections off the edge), then you don't have a proper edge/bevel and you won't cut whiskers either. A lot of "bevel uncertainty" can be eliminated with bright light and a 10X loupe. Seeing is believing.

There is no need to soak your 8K Norton unless you are doing so to lap it. It will hold water on its surface whether you soak it or not.

Ok fellas. I've gone through 2 cycles of honing / shaving with all of my blades. This takes a while because I only shave 2 or 3 times a week. For the first cycle I put each blade on the Naniwa 12k for 40 laps. The shave were better, especially the Bismarck, but still not as smooth as I'd expect. I put them through another 40 lap cycle and WOW, there was a huge difference. The Fili was unbelievably smooth - just like coming fresh from a honemeister. I'm going to put the INOX through another 40 passes - it's always felt "scritchy", and still does.

Thanks for your guidance!!!
John