I'm not sure how or when it happened

But today i appear to be able to hone.

I'm not saying that i'm a honemiester or experienced or particularly efficient, or the next greatest thing in honing. All i know is i sat down at 5pm with 3 razors in various stages of sharpness from "not" to "only just shaves" determined to get a good shaving edge and at 11 i have 3 razors that have passed TPT, HHT (with chest and head hair, don't ask) and shaves with out tug or drag.

Here's what happened.

I think leaving something for a while and coming back to it can be beneficial, in my case i went to the rig for 10 days. I've been honing for a month or so, with the help of some of the guys on the forum walking me thru my baby steps, and i'd got to the above mentioned "only just shaves" but none of my razors HHT'd (maybe once but i think that was luck). just couldn't seem to push it over the edge to shave ready.

I realise HHT is a party trick but in my case it's useful, no razor i have that doesn't pass the HHT doesn't shave without tugging.

While i was at the rig, i thought and thought and thought and came up with a plan.

I'd already discovered that i prefer to set bevels with a 220, tape and pressure. I give it enough laps to get rid of chips, bring up a little fresh metal and move up to a 1k where i do enough work to smooth out the 220 work.

after this i went with pyramid honing and i just never got there, as much as i tried.

I remembered while in my bunk something i read on a custom makers site about the pyramid method and how he didn't like it. How being able to recognise when enough work was done on a grit levell without going back and forth.

So i aimed to do the following. Work on a grit stage until the marks left behind by the previous stage had gone and the edge was straight and even

So i went to work, set the bevel checking, every 5 laps with the loupe to see where i was. i noticed that the scrathces from a previous stage would be deeper and darker than the current stages scratches, and when these had gone, the bevel was a uniform colour and edge smooth, I'd be ready to go up. This was all in conjunction with MMT, TNT, and TPT where applicable

for the first time ever, i got the razor shaving arm hair off the 1k. i moved up doing what i described removing the tape at the 4k, and going for light as possible on the 8k. when i checked with the loupe and it seemed like i was there, i went to TPT. i got the result that i feel on my shave ready razors, so i took it to the bathroom, 20 laps on linen 50 on latigo and tried an HHT. popped hair first time with every razor. after this i did 20 laps on the naninwa 12k and a further set of linen and latigo.

I did one stage with all 3 razors at the same time so i could compare, was good to have a baseline. that way i could deal with inconsistencies and get all three in the same conditon. i checked constantly with the loupe so that i did the minimum amount of strokes to get where i needed to be.

Now, they may need a little bit more smoothing out but i got to a point i have NEVER got to before.

By the way, my Grelot is very nice honed up :)

ok, so there we go, now this disclaimer.

This worked for me, I am not disparaging the pyramid method, or saying i know better than the many many more experienced, and better honers and honemeisters on the site, I just mean that i found something else that works for me personally. and to be honest, I'm glad, because at the end of the day all i really want to do is to be able to hone my own razors :)

Cheers Guys

Nice job!

That is kinda how it goes, you just sit down to hone one day and it all falls into place. Its like learning any other process or playing an instrument. You go through the process again and again and one day it just falls into place!

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Originally Posted by Stubear

Nice job!

That is kinda how it goes, you just sit down to hone one day and it all falls into place. Its like learning any other process or playing an instrument. You go through the process again and again and one day it just falls into place!

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Same here, a razor I couldn't get sharp 1 year ago, I got sharp in 1/2 hour last week. I think the hands develop muscle memory and feel after many reps.

Practice is an amazing thing... Good job

Now let me give you a small hint: Don't forget about that Pyramid, about 6 months from now go back to it and re-learn it and you will find it belongs in your bag of tools :nj

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Practice is an amazing thing... Good job

Now let me give you a small hint: Don't forget about that Pyramid, about 6 months from now go back to it and re-learn it and you will find it belongs in your bag of tools :nj

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I'll def give it a go again when i've developed the skillset a bit

Cheers guys! i'll maybe go give my Wedge another attempt. Also noticed my bevels have went from wide and uneven to narrower and consistent. still not perfect, but better.

Big 'Grats, Tekbow. It feels great to shave w/ your own edges. Keep posting & asking questions. The help here is fantastic.

Congrats and thanks for telling how you progressed.

You say you removed the tape at 4k; that confuses me. If I do anything new with tape midhone, I add it before the 12k to get a microbevel. But if you remove tape at 4k, then you lift the edge tip off the hones and just polish a shoulder a hair's width back from the tip.

What you did worked for you, but please close this logical gap for me.

No no, good question, thanks for asking it

This was something i came across in the Wiki and it seems to have worked well for me, especially as i would rather set a bevel on a 220 with a few strokes and polish up one a 1K

basically it works like this, tape the spine and use a medium pressure when doing your strokes. what seems to happen is that because of hollow grinds the blad will deflect a little. this means the angle you're setting the blade at will hopefully be the same as the angle you have when removing the tape and using no pressure. I tape only to protect the spine at lower grit levels. And i doubt it would work with a wedge, too stiff possibly but seems to work with a quarter hollow.

The theory was definitely born out by the MMT which showed after i removed the tape i was still making contact with the edge, and also by using the loupe which showed i was polishing on the same width of bevel as i had set.

Hope this helps

OK, that makes sense. Sounds kinda ballsy, to gamble on matching the eventual unflexed bevel with a flexed one. I'll have to furrow my brow a while to see how this differs from taping for the final polish.

Furrowing now...

I did with three razors and got good consistent results, one was full hollow and the other two quarter hollows. althought the bevel wasn't as much of a gamble i guess as i leave the magic marker on when stroking to make sure i'm not getting massive uneven bevels, so i was constantly adjusting the stroke and pressure too. i did that at all grit stages.

Now.. trying to get my head around your methodology, so your saying that you don't use tape up until the 12k at all including the bevel setting then tape to establish a microbevel right? I guess, off the top of my head, the difference is that at no point during what i was doing was there a microbevel established, in fact i worked to maintain as narrow a single bevel as i could with out getting into multiple bevels. as i said, the only reason tape was used was to protect the spine from the 220 and 1k stages, then the minimum strokes after (checked on the loupe etc) so that spine wear was kept to a minimum.

I think?

Personally I prefer to use tape always, just changing it a couple time through the honing process. I like to have the same feel on my hones all the time.

the only reason i think i don't is because i like to keep the blade geometry the same as what's considered optimal i guess. not that i would need to send out razors now because i'm getting there myself, just seems faithful to the design if that makes sense lol

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Originally Posted by tekbow

the only reason i think i don't is because i like to keep the blade geometry the same as what's considered optimal i guess. not that i would need to send out razors now because i'm getting there myself, just seems faithful to the design if that makes sense lol

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I use tape if the razor has been seriously abused (it needs a bevel reset with 1k or lower hones) or if it's pristine, otherwise I don't.

Oops, this is going to turn into a use of tape thread lol

That makes sense, keeping the wear even at edge and spine. Some folks (myself included, recently) want to keep the spine wear minimal, though. The habit I'm getting into is, with a blade I haven't honed before, to hone all the way through without tape so I get the same polish on the spine as I'm getting on the edge. After that I'll protect the spine unless I put a chip in the center of the blade... then I suppose I'd want to bring down the spine as I pull in the edge.

Otherwise I'll just take the blame if a lifetime of touch-ups skews the geometry. Mea culpa to my blades' next lifetime of users.

With a full wedge, though, In my opinion tape is critical. It's as much to preserve your hones as anything. I have one wedge that spun out of control on me, and there's now as much honed width on the spine as at the bevel. That all happened before I had read much here, alas.

Ahh, this all really boils down to opinion and preference. My original question was to fill what I saw as a logical gap, and you cleared that up for me.

I must say I admire the attention you paid to your honing. You must be able to really get in the zone.

Thanks roughkype, but unfortunately not, i have a long way to go :) they pass HHT but now i need to work on efficiency, consistency, and just generally feeling what the hone is telling me among other things. also, i'm sure they could be sharper. From what you're saying you have a much greater idea of control and matching wear than i do, i'd not considered it and am glad you mentioned it because i will from now on.

I also agree about honing without tape all the way thru on a new blade for even wear, but i think that the 220 and 1k are just too rough on the spine and as a bevel set can take a while sometimes (in my case the 1k polishing) that its just not worth what it does to the spine IMO of course

I agree about the full wedge, I have one that was about to head south so i set it aside until i'd figured honing out a little better, and as gssixgun said, I'm going to revisit the pyramid system as there's a reason it's so universally used.

If you have a proper bevel and a sharp edge, and you go on to tape the spine with the intention of creating a secondary bevel, aren't you therefore intentionally dulling the edge? The secondary bevel will have a bevel angle less acute than that of the primary bevel, and it would appear that you would have had a sharper edge by leaving the primary bevel alone.

i think the tape increases the angle therefore creating a more focused secondary bevel at the edge? I think that's what roughkype is saying.

I think of it like a diagram of a lens focussing light where it passes thru the lens and the light meets at a point closer to the lens than it otherwise would have been. I guess the tape is the lens.

I've done secondary bevels before and have had some success with them. I've stopped doing it because it doesn't seem to make any sense. Assume that you have a good edge, then you have a choice of finishing with the same amount of tape or adding a layer to get a secondary bevel. If all else is equal, then that bevel with the added layer of tape will differ from the primary bevel in only one way, a less acute angle at the bevel. Is that really something we want to achieve or something we should attempt to avoid? Putting in more work, not to mention more tape, for a duller edge makes no sense.

ah i understand, your saying that the angle at which the bevels meet is wider and therefore the edge won't be able to be as sharp? sorry, i misunderstood

That layer of tape for just the final polish changes the angle by a small fraction of a degree, and just focuses the final hone's action on the final edge. With my hand lens I see a polish line about 1/4 the width of the bevel at most. It's a little bit like the magic marker test, a nice verification that my very last 10 laps did what I meant for them to do.

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Originally Posted by tekbow

ah i understand, your saying that the angle at which the bevels meet is wider and therefore the edge won't be able to be as sharp? sorry, i misunderstood

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Yes, that's my point. I've done secondary bevels when finishing and have had good luck with them. But I have to wonder whether the edge would have been even keener if I'd not added the tape and just polished the primary bevel. All in all, it really isn't much of a difference. But if that is the case, why create that small difference when all it does is technically make the bevel angle more obtuse (less acute)? When I've done it, I've also enjoyed the visual confirmation of those few final finishing strokes. The reality has to be, however, that I've created a secondary bevel that cannot logically be as sharp as the primary bevel I started with. I used to use secondary bevels when touching up a blade, but I've stopped doing it because the primary bevel is just as easy to touch up, and the results logically have to better.

I thought that I should add that I have had plenty of opportunity to employ secondary bevels. When I get a razor that has a tall bevel from using too much pressure while honing, from not using tape in the honing process, or one that's just been honed a lot, I use tape to create a secondary bevel. The tall bevels look ugly to me, and I don't want make them any worse. I'll throw on three layers of tape, and the secondary bevel I put on it will be almost invisible. It's unfortunate for a razor to have so much avoidable wear on it, and I'm just not going to add to it. Secondary bevels do have their place.

Good points, and a reminder to me that each razor is a unique case with it's own honing requirements and will be something i'll have to start considering. The three i honed yesterday where all in very good condition with little wear, hence why i was probably able to get a fairly neat and tidy narrow bevel.

I had a thin little 4/8th whose edge collapsed/crumbled/degraded after a shave, twice. Taping the spine (thrice) not only protected the spine from narrowing further (thus creating an overly acute angled edge) but obtusified the already over-acute angle.

Ummm. Yeah. And honing takes longer on wide bevels (honed surface area). Multiple reasons to tape.

Hey guys

well over the last few days i've final shave tested the 3 razors and i can happily report that i've had good smooth shaves off all three razors, they all became hair melters. Now if i can only repeat this independently in a separate session with a different razor i'll be getting somewhere.

to be balanced i do have a criticism:

The Grelot needs more work. I don't think i did enoug work at the 4k stage and as a result there is a teeny tiny micro micro nibble visible under the 20x loupe near the heel and one near the toe, with some scratching still mildly visible (darker lines faintly down the bevel). i think the nibbles are a result of the 1k scratches.

The Ti''s (which i'd dinged and had to take the edge back a fraction) bevel is marginal wider at the toe than heel, but it isn't wavey.

will go back and work on the 4k again until the nibbles are gone

I'll take the opportunity to ask, what's the gateway test of the 8k for you guys? mine has settled on a TPT up until i feel it''s getting keen enough then running the razor up my arm hair maybe a quarter inch off the skin to see if it catches and cuts. thats when i give it 20 on linen, 50 on latigo and gor for an HHT, if that works out its a quick shave on the cheek and if there's no tug or pulll it goes to the 12k naniwa and back to the strop. I've still to get some CrO2, but when i do it'll come after the 12k.

For me the tests are all visual. I don't go from 1K to 4K unless I have a good bevel. I can see that by checking with the 10x loupe. From there, it's mostly polishing for me. I don't worry much about residual scratches from prior stones. I've left them before and the shave wasn't affected. My normal progression now is 1K-4K-8K-16K then on to linen sometimes then usually 100 laps on leather. I have CrOx and have used it successfully, but the purist in my lets the stones and leather do their work. Personally, I've never seen a "glint" on the edge that was a result of residual scratches from 1K or 4K. It has always been a result of an incompletely set bevel. The edge should be invisible under light.

it wasn't a glint, although i do know what you mean, it was the tiniest nibble. I did have a good bevel as the 1k passed arm hair and TNT, and the loupe showed a nice even edge with the toothiness you would expect. i guess I visualise a trangle wave that gradually becomes a sine wave and less in amplitude as you go up the grits. If i don't do ann the work a particular stage needs then one or 2 of those triangles stay put and manifest as a what appears to be a nibble later on?

You're right though, the shave wasn't affected, but it's just that i don't feel i've done the best work i'm capable of on that edge. The other 2 razors are good all the way along the edge, so that's how i know i'm capable of it.

I've had some strange things happen, seemingly out of nowhere while honing. I've gone all the way through the progression to 12K or 16K, stropped 50 laps on leather, looked at the blade and it had a little nick in it. I'm pretty careful when doing this, so I know I didn't nick the blade or anything. On old razors that may have Devil's Spit and resulting pitting, I've had times when honing actually revealed a small pit in the edge. I even have some that are quite pitted up, and there is not much choice but to leave some of them if they are out toward the toe or heel. As long as the middle area is free of them, I can still have well with them. When these things happen it can be quite disconcerting, but it's not always necessarily your fault.

What I basically use is shaving arm hair, when it does that the TPT, until I get a nice and even bevel, then I usually hone through until the end, when I might try a HHT for fun.

Using a combi-coticule, and going by Bart's advise on coticule.be, after the bevel setting with proper slurry, I add a layer of tape for very light slurry and water, since there seems to be some difference in how coticules release their particles with slurry and water. Great results.

I always use one layer of tape at the bevel setting just because I don't want to mess up the spine with hone wear. personal preference, I guess.