Totally stumped, can't get edge to respond. Can't eliminate reflective line at edge.

So I've been working on this honing thing for practically a whole year now and I simply can't get the edge past a badly-pulling level of sharp.

What baffles me is the reflective line. I'm using what's basically a toy microscope, but has enough resolution at 30-50x to give me a good look at the bevel, scratch patterns, etc. I can always see some light reflecting brightly from the extreme edge of the bevel, whether the light source is above or below. If I angle the blade up towards the objective I can't see any semblance of a dark line. If I do the Magic Marker test it will confusingly fail to even hide the reflective edge of the bevel, even if I draw the edge right through the tip of the marker.

I can get a dull razor to shave arm hair in about half an hour, max, EVERY time, without using any deliberate pressure, on 15 micron film or a Norton 1k. From this point on I can technically shave the hair off my face, but nothing I do seems to get me more than marginal improvement. I can pass the TNT, shave hair and the edge will dig smoothly into my thumbtip. I can't do the "pop arm hair" test because my arm hair is super fine and my leg hair lays down flat. HHT usually passes but I don't pay attention to it. I'm ONLY judging actual sharpness with actual shave tests with shower & soaking and ever-improving lather, but so far it's all going down the drain.

In short, EVERYTHING else seems to point to my bevels being set, but the bright edges won't go away and they won't respond to my 4k. I've tried adding slurries, circles, no tape, up to 4 layers of tape to see if the 4k or 8k could smooth the edge and nothing seems to have any effect.

It's not the razors, I've tried different ones with exactly the same results (all of them good razors). My stones are beveled and smooth and flat enough to hold each other's weight with suction. I used to use light one-handed x-strokes but I've started guiding with my other hand to help avoid lifting the toe.

So what can be happening here? Is it tactics or technique? If it were overhoning or a wire edge I'd be able to see it come and go, wouldn't I? And I don't understand how it can be underhoning, not while it passes so many tests, and I've been working on the stones for hours without intentionally dulling anything.

That just leaves technique, right? I can't find any theoretical flaw in mine, as much as I've tried. In my head every hone cuts much faster than in reality, and I handle the razors as if they did. Gently, that is.

I don't have a professionally honed razor for comparison (yet), but frankly I don't know how it would help right now because there's absolutely no mistaking my edge for a sharp one.

Can anyone spot any problems in my thinking? This forum is a fantastic place, but for the life of me, and all of everyone's advice, I can't seem to crack this.

How about you send me yer address in a pm, and I am going to send you a razor, that has the bevel well and truly set, then you hone it out to shave ready....
I think that might help you out...

If everything else says the bevel is set, stop worrying about the microscope.

Sometimes low quality optics will cause a halo effect. What you're seeing might not really be there.
Then again, it might be. Take Glen up on his offer, and compare that to what you're seeing. Then you'll have a frame of reference for working on razors later on.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

How about you send me yer address in a pm, and I am going to send you a razor, that has the bevel well and truly set, then you hone it out to shave ready....
I think that might help you out...

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PM sent. Thanks Glen. You guys make this forum a great place.

Thanks guys. I've been trying to rule out problems one by one and figure out what's holding me back. At this point I've pretty much run out of ideas, though. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm not giving up.

My first honing success came from verifying a proper bevel with the magic marker test (mark the bevel then hone a little to see if you evenly erase the ink) then EXACTLY following the pyramid method instructions on a Norton 4/8. No more laps than indicated. Minimal pressure.

Good luck.

I will only add that I've had razors that I have honed and received great shaves from that seemed under bright lighting and 10X magnification to have light coming from the very top of the edge when the razor was held edge up. When I reversed the razor to edge down there was no light coming from the edge. When I looked at the edge, edge on, with bright light on it, there was no light, indicating a proper bevel. Because the shave had been so good, I concluded that bright light and 10X (or even higher magnification) can be tricky sometimes. I check for a good bevel with bright light directly on the edge. If there is any reflection, even a slight glinting of light, the bevel is not yet set. If the edge "divides" and does not reflect the light, the bevel is set, and it is time to continue with the rest of the honing progression.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you are probably having problems caused by pressure when honing. That usually will leave you with an edge that is not where you want it. The other thing because of trying so many things, you may be using a lot more strokes or circles than you need to. It would really be nice if you could find someone close to sit down with and see what's up. Any reason you are fixing or gauging the brightness of your edges?? One recommendation would also be to pick a method like a pyramid after the bevel is set well at let's say either 10 or 15 and work down from there. No pressure other than the weight of the blade. If you do circles after bevel setting stick with 40 circles each way on the 4K with pressure and then 40 circles each way with no pressure followed by 5-10 no pressure X strokes followed by 7-10 no pressure X strokes followed by 10 no pressure X strokes on your finishing hone. Strop and test. If close, but not there, you can try 10 strokes on CrOx or .5 diamond or 3-5 more no pressure on the finishing stone. Point is try something repeatable and watch your pressure to see if the results start getting better. Stay off the microscope and as long as the bevel is set well let your test shaves tell you what may be going on. Razor going over your face easily usually means over honed. Razor cutting some hair with a little pulling may actually be close. Razor stopping in the beard, needs a little more work like going back to the 4K or 8K. Relax and don't push yourself to the point of frustration.

Well, today the razor Glen kindly sent me turned up in my mailbox. Comparing it directly to my own practice razor I may be decently close after all. Under the scope his bevel looks a lot smoother than mine, which may just be the different stone (Naniwa vs. my Norton). The important bits: the edge feels the same on my arm hair and my thumb as my own does, although I've obviously got a beginner's sense of those tests. When I look under the microscope, though, I'm seeing EXACTLY the same thing on both edges; when I shine a little LED flashlight up from underneath and behind the edge it bounces light off the extreme edge of the bevel in kind of a row of tiny glints. Looks like what I'd expect from a slightly toothy edge off a bevel setter. If I change the angle of the light so that there isn't a glint and I'm just looking at the silhouette of the edge, I can see that slight toothyness. So assuming it was like that before I tested it on my arm hair it looks like my bevels might be okay.

Reflecting on what I was doing before, I think Lynn's right about my pressure, mainly on the 4k. I don't feel as much control as I do on the 8k, but balancing the hone in my hand like in Hi_bud_Gl's thread about the Escher I managed to use MUCH less pressure than I did before. By now I know that my tools are fine, razor's fine, bevel's likely fine (or very near), so I'm either honing badly on the 4k, and going nowhere, or making occasional bad strokes that ruin my progress.

I'll try Glen's razor with a pyramid on the 4/8 next, and eventually I'm sure this'll all fall under the category of "trying too hard."

*Edit: I was just re-reading your post, Lynn, and wondered if in this part:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

... followed by 5-10 no pressure X strokes followed by 7-10 no pressure X strokes followed by 10 no pressure X strokes on your finishing hone.

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you meant to say that the 7-10 strokes were on the 8k?

Just a suggestion from an old guy ..... forget about the microscope, smooth bevels and reflected light. Where is the reflection actually coming from ? Take the razor, lather up and see if it shaves well. That is the best way to assess yours or anyone else's honing ..... assuming you have accomplished adequate shaving technique. If not than it is an uphill struggle until you do.:gl: