What is the Pyramid system?

Hello, all! Just now joined.
I recently got all my gear from classicshaving and I'm pretty pleased so far. The razor is a Dovo Inox and it came pretty sharp. But it didn't pass any of the tests you guys talk about, so I attemped to hone.
Bad idea. It went from pretty sharp to pretty dull! Well then I found out that my norton 4/8 needed to be lapped, so I did that and I think its flat now. My razor is starting to get a little more sharp, but still after quite a while on the hone its nowere close.
I've read lots of threads on lots of sites that mention this mystery called the Pyramid system of honing. But I can't find anywhere that actually outlines the system. Could someone please list it out in detail? Also, any additional pointers would be appreciated. I'm trying to learn to do this myself, before I have to break down and send it away to be professionally honed. Thanks in advance!

It is helpfull if you read the Honning forum from the beggining. Here's one of the first posts in it, should help you a bit:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?t=2809

Nenad

on the left of this page up top it says " HELP FILES"... lots of good stuff in there.. videos on how to hone and a PDF on the tests


file here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/compo...wnload/gid,42/

Thanks for posting the old link. I was kind of/sort of doing a pyramid with my two barber hones from Tilly. A medium Wester Bros. and a fine Lithide, both used dry. I just wasn't quite getting there. Then with the old file of the 11 step pyramid to guide me, I've finally got my Double Duck Dwarf up to shaving sharp! I did my 5/8 Henckels at the same time and I'll be using that one tonight to see where it stands. The DD isn't quite up to the Imperial I got from Lynn, but then I don't know that my honing skills will ever be at that level! Maybe I need to invest in one of Tony's pasted paddle strops?

Thanks for the info on the beginning of the thread

Update on the Henckels. Still not there yet. I don't think it's overhoned. It shaves, but pulls & doesn't get as close as my other three. I think I'll try another pyramid on it, but leave out radical step 5 w/ the 10 strokes on the medium hone. More later.

FWIW, I have found that the Henckels require more time on the hones. They seem to be of a harder temper than other makers. This is a good thing because it means that once you have them sharp they will stay sharp longer.

Just take your time, the razor will get sharp.

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Originally Posted by dennisthemenace

Update on the Henckels. Still not there yet. I don't think it's overhoned. It shaves, but pulls & doesn't get as close as my other three. I think I'll try another pyramid on it, but leave out radical step 5 w/ the 10 strokes on the medium hone. More later.

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Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. Went through the pyramid w/ the Henckels again last night, omitting step 5. Better on the thumb test, but I won't shave w/ it till this evening in prep for the third shift job.

Well, just used the Henckels. I shouldn't have skipped step 5! It's ALMOST there, but not quite. Though I brought my 1/2 Heljestrand into the bathroom for cleanup, I didn't need to use it. Did the whole shave w/ the Henckels. Maybe just some fine tuning on the Lithide at this point. I appreciate now, after taking off the goatee, just how hard it is to shave my chin!

Good to hear you're making progress. I suspect if you gradually lighten upon the pressure while honing to very nearly none at the end of the pyramid, that you'll get an even keener edge. That's if, whether mild, light or ultra light, you've kept the pressure even along the edge for each stroke. Keep at it!

X

Thanks for the encouragement, X! Will try the whole 11 steps again, slowly, with light to nearly no pressure and see if that does it! My Double Duck Dwarf is really close now & I want to get the Heckels to match it or go one better.

About three 11 step pyramids later. The first of them seemed to make the Henckels duller. Now it's getting close again. Just used it this evening and didn't need the backup. No real soreness or discomfort, so I don't think it's overhoned; but it's definitely not as smooth a shave as the other 3 straights I own. Planning on doing a 1 - 5 with my barber hones before every shave till it's equal with the others. I think the 11 steps would definitely be overkill at this point. Thanks men for all the good advice and encouragement.

Your on the right track, the 1-5 between shaves will eventually get you there.

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Originally Posted by dennisthemenace

About three 11 step pyramids later. The first of them seemed to make the Henckels duller. Now it's getting close again. Just used it this evening and didn't need the backup. No real soreness or discomfort, so I don't think it's overhoned; but it's definitely not as smooth a shave as the other 3 straights I own. Planning on doing a 1 - 5 with my barber hones before every shave till it's equal with the others. I think the 11 steps would definitely be overkill at this point. Thanks men for all the good advice and encouragement.

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Why the sets on the 8K stone in the middle of the pyramid after the ones on the 4K stone?

As I understand it, the 4K forms the sharpe edge and the 8K is just to polish it up before stropping. To me there is no point in polishing the razor on the 8K if you are just going to stick it back on the 4K for another set. Can someone please explain this to me? Surely you should just use the 8K at the end?

I am waiting for my combination stone to arrive before I do my first honing. Maybe it wil all become clear when I start honing.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by dennisthemenace

About three 11 step pyramids later. The first of them seemed to make the Henckels duller.

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Did you strop before putting it back on the hone? If not, the fin is still crooked and wavy so the first stroke on the hone tends to cut it off :-(

Oh yes. I stropped after every pyramid. 40 - 50 round trips.

After you use the pyramid system to get the blade sharp, and strop it, is it shave ready? or do you move to a finer hone or what?

I only own two barber hones, a medium and a fine from Tilly. After the honing, I strop and shave. I've got 2 up to shave ready; I'm hoping that after today after doing a one - five, & stropping it (the Henckels) will magically be there. But expect several more 1 - 5's before it really is.

Its not my system, but your question may go unanswered if I don't atleast take a stab at it. The key is the test shaves as you go and 5 x 8K passes will smooth out the bevel enough to test it and see if its close. Failing a test shave most guys will go back to 4K and rock back and forth until the razor is close. Testing of 4K will take part of you face off. With experience its possible to move off 4K at some determined sharpness test, say an HHT (thats Hanging Hair Test).

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Originally Posted by Bobbo

Why the sets on the 8K stone in the middle of the pyramid after the ones on the 4K stone?

As I understand it, the 4K forms the sharpe edge and the 8K is just to polish it up before stropping. To me there is no point in polishing the razor on the 8K if you are just going to stick it back on the 4K for another set. Can someone please explain this to me? Surely you should just use the 8K at the end?

I am waiting for my combination stone to arrive before I do my first honing. Maybe it wil all become clear when I start honing.

Thanks

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Yes, pretty much. It depends on your beard and face. I use many more smoothing strokes afterward, on 8K or a barber hone. I usually check the bevel as I may need to resmooth the bevel at this point too. I can hone but I can also do damage to the edge, so it needs to be relooked at.

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Originally Posted by icecow

After you use the pyramid system to get the blade sharp, and strop it, is it shave ready? or do you move to a finer hone or what?

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Did a 1/5, a 2/5 and another 1/5 this morning. Then stropped on newspaper, as I saw that hint somewhere on the forum; then stropped on my hanging strop. The Henckels is finally getting real close to my others. But I'm not there yet. Great way to learn patience, isn't it?

In the pyramid you will notice a decreasing number of strokes on the 4K. The difficulty is determing when the bevel is perfect. We know that we are getting close by the results of our tests. So this whole process is one of zeroing in on a shaving sharp edge. As has been noted you continually test. You can stop at any point, strop the razor, and test shave.
Once you acquire some experience then you will not have to follow the pyramid. Your tests, HHT or thumb test, will tell you what to do next and when to test shave.
The 8k strokes are assumed to be all you need to polish the edge. This may be increased for some razors and decreased for others. So, the thinking is that you perform say 10 laps on the 4k and then 5 on the 8k. Then you test . If it is sharp enough then you stop and perform a shave test. If not then you go on to the next set of 4/8 and test.etc. You are gradually zeroing in on a shaving sharp edge with the goal of not overhoning( which is the most common mistake).

Hope this helps,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbo

Why the sets on the 8K stone in the middle of the pyramid after the ones on the 4K stone?

As I understand it, the 4K forms the sharpe edge and the 8K is just to polish it up before stropping. To me there is no point in polishing the razor on the 8K if you are just going to stick it back on the 4K for another set. Can someone please explain this to me? Surely you should just use the 8K at the end?

I am waiting for my combination stone to arrive before I do my first honing. Maybe it wil all become clear when I start honing.

Thanks

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by icecow

After you use the pyramid system to get the blade sharp, and strop it, is it shave ready? or do you move to a finer hone or what?

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When your starting out just perform a shave test. You can perform some laps on a finer grit if you want to. Be sure and strop 30-50 laps just before shaving.

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Originally Posted by dennisthemenace

Did a 1/5, a 2/5 and another 1/5 this morning. Then stropped on newspaper, as I saw that hint somewhere on the forum; then stropped on my hanging strop. The Henckels is finally getting real close to my others. But I'm not there yet. Great way to learn patience, isn't it?

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If your Henckels is an Inox(Stainless Steel) then you will learn patience!:)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

If your Henckels is an Inox(Stainless Steel) then you will learn patience!:)

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Nope. Just plain old carbon steel. It really surprises me that this one should be so much harder than my other two that I've been working on. Using the Imperial from Lynn as my benchmark I've got my Double Duck and my C. V. Heljestrand as close to Lynn's as I think that I can make them. The Henkels was in great shape, nearly mint when I bought it on ebay a few years back for I think $12. Nothing to restore on it, but it's very slow going all the same. Of course the barber hones I know are much more slow than the Norton 4k/8k; but I could afford them. With a tight budget and a personal spending allowance of $10 per week, I am VERY selective.

Did a couple more rounds on the Henkels and it's ALMOST there. Finished up w/ my Double Duck which IS there. I made a mistake on the DD awhile back, tried to tweak it even more and overhoned! Back honed it, then did a 5/5, 3/3, 1/5, 1/5, 1/5 and it's better than ever. After stropping too of course. I'm going to start doing a 1/5 before every shave w/ the Henckels till it gets to where I want it.

Well first take out all your stones
put the 1K the 4K and the 6K on the bottom
then the 8K and 10K then put the 12K on the
top and you have a pyramid of hones...heh heh..sorry..ulp..

Ok say you are starting with a razor of sort of undetermined need for
sharpening...
I use a 1K hone to set the angle of the edge, and to grind out any nicks.
then the 4K to do most of the sharpening. Then a 6K to finish the
sharpening and an 8K to start the polish and a 10K to do the
finish polish. The end result is a very good edge. Providing of course that
A. The stones are all flat and clean. Metal residue can clog your hone and make
for an uneven edge. And of course a 'wavy' surface on a hone needs to be
flattened.
B. They are kept wet during sharpening the coarser stones need to be soaked,
the finer stones (6K and above) need to have a layer of water on the surface.
C. I remember to KEEP THE SPINE in gentle contact with the stone. I kept not
doing this when I was starting, because it was counterintuitive to what I
had learned sharpening knives and other blades.
The final few strokes on the fine hone are done gently..
Then the final polishing is done on the strop.
I have tried a LOT of sharpening systems - including the Spyderco, and
sundry oilstones...I USE a set of Japanese waterstones. If used properly they
rarly need to be laped .
The reason I use so many is to reduce the 'gap' in grit density and reduce
overall wear on my hones. I used to go from a 4K to the 10K.. THis worked,
but it took me a looong time on the 10K and it keep clogging. So I added
the 6, and the 8. Now there is very little accumulation of metal in the 10K.
You also should have a nagura stone. This is used for cleaning, raising up
a bit of abrasive 'slush' on the hone surface, and can do some minor
laping. These usually come with the finer grit hones, but can be purchased.
I well remember my first few attempts at honing, and getting a duller razor then
what came out of the box, MOST discouraging. However by
following the above steps I get a VERY sharp razor.
Now one is assuming that the razor in question is made of good steel and
will take an edge. Dovo, TI, Timor, Case, DD, etc are all good razors.
However now and again you will run into one on ebay (or elsewhere) that
was junk when it was made, and no amount of honing is going to make
it any better - I have a couple of these - (anybody want one :)
Annnd of course we have all avoided the veriously named razors made in
Pakistan, that will not even cut string....These guys are getting VERY shrewd
in putting names on their razors that would lead one to belive that they
are made in Germany, or Japan, or England. When in fact they are the
same ol Pakistani crud with a diffrent name etched on the scales....

Best to you all, especially the new guys. Keep at it.. And do not become
one of those folks selling a "nearly new" Dovo on ebay cause you got
fed up trying to hone your razor. There is help, and it WILL get easier..

jim being unusually wordy in GOld Bar

Several more 1/5s on the Heckels at this point. It is shaving OK, but not great. I am afraid of overhoning at this point; as I overhoned the Dbl Duck. Of course once that happened, I backhoned the DD then did a few 1/5s and it brought it up to snuff. Anyone else find that to happen? Could overhoning & then correcting it actually be a good thing? Or was I just lucky?

Its not a good thing but its a consistent point to restart from. Again, I'd start practicing using only the 8K and very light strokes, maybe 10 passes. Should do wonders for the edge.

Tried the 10 light strokes a couple days ago, and the Henckels seemed to be worse. Wondered if I overhoned. Anyway, tonight did 10 more R/Ts on the Lithide and it is finally there! I think I attempted too light a touch before and the blade tends to wobble a bit. Tonight used a bit firmer (but still light) touch and it worked.

Congrats! Thats the idea. Remember its not the light touch thats bad its the wobbly! One wobble will undue 10 good strokes.

I curl my pinky under the spine, hold the shank balanced between index pad and thumb pad (like a fulcrum) and this forces the extremely heavy blade (compared to the light scales) into the stone with an exact weight (the weight of the blade) on every stroke forward and back. Failure is nearly impossible! :-)

Glad we could help.

This really ought to be a sticky in my view, but until then I'll give it a bump up :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dennisthemenace

Several more 1/5s on the Heckels at this point. It is shaving OK, but not great. I am afraid of overhoning at this point; as I overhoned the Dbl Duck. Of course once that happened, I backhoned the DD then did a few 1/5s and it brought it up to snuff. Anyone else find that to happen? Could overhoning & then correcting it actually be a good thing? Or was I just lucky?

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One of our members, David Uthe, deliberately used this approach to hone his razors. He has not been active for some time now. The difficulty arises from determining when a razor is overhoned and then the problem of removing the wire edge. This will vary depending on the steel and grind of the razor.

It is an approach that is not widely practiced.

Hope this helps,:)