is this an uneven bevel?

Hello all,

I recently acquired this razor a William Rodgers (I cut my way), I was wanting to restore it (never done any before) and think I it only needs some polishing, although the bevel seems uneven along the length and on each side, as I'm no expert I've attached some photos for you guys to look at and let me know what you think, is this normal or from someone else restoring it? at the moment the only hone I have is a Norton 4000/8000k, will this be enough to get this shave ready? I've only honed 1 razor before (last week) and that was a hollow ground, this is a wedge..
Also what is best to use to polish the scales as they are stained in places especially inside? Thanks in advance to any answers..
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Looks not too bad, if it was mine i would bread knife it and re hone it but as long as the bevel meets and it isn't too much of a frown \ warped it could still shave fine

Here's my opinion.

Don't breadknife. It takes sooooo much work to bring a bevel back to a razor that has been breadknifed.

You can use a metal polish on the blade, such as Maas or Flitz. They both work nicely, although I prefer the Maas. They can also work on scales, although be gentle because they are abrasive. Alternately, a rough cloth and soap/water might help. For the inside, grab a pipe cleaner. They work really well.

As for the honing, I would seriously recommend that you find someone local (and we have quite a few members in and around the UK) to either hone or help you hone that razor. Some wedges can be absolutely no fun. If it were me, I'd send it out.

Hope this helps a bit,

Thanks Maxi,

I'll give the Maas a try if I can find some, I like the pipe cleaner idea...
I really want to try and hone it myself as would like to learn this skill..

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Originally Posted by Brighty83

Looks not too bad, if it was mine i would bread knife it and re hone it but as long as the bevel meets and it isn't too much of a frown \ warped it could still shave fine

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I am sorry but why would you bredknife a perfectly fine razor?
There is no frown whatsoever to merit such action. This is extremely radical action that should be attempted in very limited cases, and definitely not by newbies.

@OP.
wedge grind razors often have uneven bevels being from improper honing over the years , or the grind not very carefully executed for the older ones. Just hone it and it should shave well.

sorry, don't bread knife it.

I should have probably said: If it was mine, 'I' would bread knife it and re-hone the edge with some tape as i like a straight edge. But.... I would not bread knife any razors until you have honed enough to know what you are doing!

I had one much the same that i fixed great with that method but it was slightly more warped then that. It is a radical method and it can ether fix or destroy your razor!

Send it to a honemaster! It will come back shave ready!

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Originally Posted by markhur

I really want to try and hone it myself as would like to learn this skill..

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It might not be the friendliest razor to learn on, with the warp i can see in the second photo (narrow near the tang and long toward the point) you will need to try some different angles and x strokes etc

Also it looks like a near wedge (3/4) to me not a proper wedge? If it was a full wedge i would not bread knife it at all, ever.

Is the blade warped or dose it just look warped to me in the second photo?

In the bottom photo i guess it doesn't look warped much at all?

From what i could see in the second photo, at the spine it goes out, then about 3mm across (going towards the point) it starts go in towards the spine until close to half way where it goes out again for the rest of the blade.

The point\middle looks a mm or so wider then the middle\back?

Like stated above,as long as you have a bevel and it shaves well,the uneven bevel is a result of the uneven spine wear. It does not effect the shave,and thats a common problem with 150 year old wedges!! Shave on brother.

thanks for the feedback guys, I will go with the honing option on my 4000 then 8000 (once polished) and see how she shaves..

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Here is a copy of the barbers honing manual if you want to have a flick through it

Wow, thank you very much for that I'll have a read, looks very helpful and interesting

Looks pretty uneven to me, but you can't make it 'even' with breadknifing etc.. The only way to fix it is to regrind the razor evenly.
It doesn't matter for shaving as long as it's honed well.

I have shaved with razors that have very uneven bevel, or has little chips but as long as it shaves good. fine by me. if it bothers me, i'll try to fix 'em. If you plan to restore that razor, I'd suggest send it out to a honemeister, honing a wedge razor with little experience can be very frustrating.
my experiece, after sometimes honing some hollows I was quite confident making razor sharp from bevel start but, when I tried to do the wedge I spent hours painfully getting nothing but blade with lots of hone wears which supposed to be my beautiful razor

hi, thanks for all the responses, I decided to have a go at honing it myself as didn't want to spend money on having it 'reground'. However i don't think it has gone very well, I used a norton 1K and put 1 layer of tape on the spine and have spent several hours trying to set the bevel on the edge which was 'wavy' and not even on each side and it seems this is still the case, i used a norton prep stone to create some slurry and try speed things up... it feels sharpish but does not cut hair on the skin let alone pop arm hairs...
So my question is, do i keep honing away till it is sharper or am i not applying enough pressure, I've been doing circle stroke and x patterns..
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From your last pic, it appears you have 2 bevels on that side. I would guess the edge bevel has not seen the stone yet. You should coat the edge in permanent marker to see what stroke gives you coverage or potential for coverage at this stage. Just remember adding tape to an unevenly honed spine will simply create the same edge shape at a slightly steeper angle. I would skip the tape while trying to correct this razor.
Looks also to be in the early stages of a frown forward of the heel. Lotta work ahead of you yet but it may still shave well when the 2 sides meet.

thanks for the advice, what i did the other night was put on 3 layers of tape to try and make more of an angle to hone that large bevel and now it cuts my arm hair which i guess is good, however the edge still looks similar to the previous photos and has that kind of double bevel, i will try what you suggest with the marker pen this weekend and see where it is touching the hone...is it right that if its cutting arm hair all the way along the edge i can move up to the 4k?

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Originally Posted by markhur

...is it right that if its cutting arm hair all the way along the edge i can move up to the 4k?

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If the marker is removed from the edge & it is cutting hair at bevel setting, yes , move up the grits. At the final stages of bevel setting it can be hard but not impossible to see if the bevel is fully set with a marker or even under magnification so thumbpad tests & armhair tests can be a help. How easily arm hair is cut can tell a lot too but you will probably develop your own way of doing things.

thank you for the help, just one query, what happens if when the marker pen is not removed from the entire edge or varies on each side... is that jsut a case of continuing to hone on the 1k until it is all removed evenly?

Keep trying different angles until you find the angle that hits the spot and removes the marker.

You better off finding the correct angle and doing less strokes then doing a lot of incorrect strokes and removing metal that doesn't need to be removed. I would be using a higher grit stone until you find the angle's that you need.

If the bevel isn't set correctly from the first attempt you might need to re set it where it has missed but if it touches then you probably don't need to go back to the 1k. But find the correct angle first before you do anything.

I am a rookie with straights (just the two I own(one I made)), but I have honed very many knives and I often look under 7 to 10x mag to see if the honed surfaces touch at the apex. If they do not then the blade either is not sharp or could be sharper still. I have applied this to my razors and it works for me. In my LIMITED time with razors I would guess the double bevel will keep you from having as good a blade as you will get when it is gone. That is not to say that you will not be able to get it sharp enough to shave.

After you work up the grits, maybe use a paste.

Some one told me that if my Grandfathers' Henckel is important to me I should consider sending it out to a pro and learn on a less nice and newer straight.

GL
Jeff

Hi everyone, I have been continuing with my first honing attemp on this razor at the weekend, and pretty much spent the whole day on it...i think i must be doing something wrong?.. i did have a shave with it at the end of the day just to see if i could and it cut hairs but wasn't very comfy...it also felt like the edge was wide when compared to my full hollow ground...
with the magic marker technique it removed it all evenly on one side and only in the middle on the other side, unless i applied more pressue on the bits with marker left on, it would vanish in a few strokes. I waited till it cut hairs on the skin of my arm on the 1k then went ot the 4k and it got duller and wouldn't cut hair then eventually it did and i moved to the 8k and continued, then stropped..
so should i go back to the 1k or 4k? as it is not feeling right to shave with? does speed make mcuh of a difference as i was going slow but when viewing honeing videos others go alot faster is this a technique thing that comes with practice or does the speed move more metal?

That's so funny Mark, I was battling with the same thing last night on my first hone, it'd be all sharpish and then I'd mess it up and lose it (last night). I had been on the thing for days trying to cut 1 hair. The forum guys steered me toward making my bevel correct with circle strokes..etc... and it made all the difference. I didn't have a 1k, so I used some sandpaper. My bevel was kinda cury and weird..thick here, thin there... different on both sides...etc at first. I worked it on the sand paper until it was a nice even line (or close to that, I'm sure it's not perfect), same on both sides, probably like you're imagining it should look /\ ...then...POOF! all better. It went easy after that, except for the part where you accidentally dull it, like you mentioned...LOL. I slowed my strokes and was careful not to bang the edge and that made it go better.

I was going nowhere fast for days until then. I thought I had a bevel, but didn't. It definately looks squared away when you have one, nice and neat like a razor blade.

I don't know if it's sharp enough to shave until I grow my whiskers a bit, but I have a nice SMOOTH bald spot on my arm! I used 400 sandpaper, and I think it was a little too rough, but my razor is basically a test bed. It chewed the spline up quite a bit, but the nice even line of the bevel was like magic when it showed up. I'm am really really new Mark, not giving advice because I don't know what I'm doing, but we seem to be in about the same spot and I had a little success finally so I thought I'd share for whatever it's worth.

But can I shave with it, I don't know yet.

-= Beer

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Originally Posted by markhur

Hi everyone, I have been continuing with my first honing attemp on this razor at the weekend, and pretty much spent the whole day on it...i think i must be doing something wrong?.. i did have a shave with it at the end of the day just to see if i could and it cut hairs but wasn't very comfy...it also felt like the edge was wide when compared to my full hollow ground...
with the magic marker technique it removed it all evenly on one side and only in the middle on the other side, unless i applied more pressue on the bits with marker left on, it would vanish in a few strokes. I waited till it cut hairs on the skin of my arm on the 1k then went ot the 4k and it got duller and wouldn't cut hair then eventually it did and i moved to the 8k and continued, then stropped..
so should i go back to the 1k or 4k? as it is not feeling right to shave with? does speed make mcuh of a difference as i was going slow but when viewing honeing videos others go alot faster is this a technique thing that comes with practice or does the speed move more metal?

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Honing speed is relevant to time but not metal removal.
Does it cut hair evenly along the whole blade ?
I'm concerned about this extra pressure you applied to clear the marker from the bevel. Does it require this pressure even at 8 k to clear the marker ? If it does the bevel is still not set.
If the razor is warped it may need some gymnastics to get full contact but pressure is a no no at end stage.

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Originally Posted by markhur

so should i go back to the 1k or 4k?

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Your best option is to leave the razor alone and hone another one that doesn't have such issues.

thanks for the replies, Beerosaur I'm glad its not just me with this issue i think with persistance it might pop the hairs....:banghead:

Onimaru, i does seem to cut hair evenly, however i didn't think to do the marker test on the 8k i just applied the same pressue in the right areas when i moved up to the 4k and then less and less and none on the 8k..

afriad i don't have any other razors to practice on at the moment, i've brought some on ebay with the intention of restoring but they will need some sanding to remove rust and pits and new scales before honing... also i don't think i want to practice on them as they are too nice one is a wolestonholme and the other a joseph allen with a chip in the blade.. so am watching ebay for some that don't need restoration only honing and are cheap, as the one i'm practicing on now was like £30!

Try the marker at 8k & look real close, with a loupe if you have to. If you have a complete bevel then may just need to refine the edge you have a little.

The bevel is wide because the grind is shallow, don't worry about it. If you see a wedge that has a fair bit of use and doesn't have a wide bevel, i would begin to wonder why.

I only have one wedge (M. George and Son, I think is the mark on it), I think it's probably a bit older than that and the grind is very uneven. Unless someone reground it, I was the first person to hone it and it is otherwise straight as it lays flat on a flat stone on both sides, aside from the smile.

I do not use tape on mine, it's too new to need it. I think you need to mark the edge with a light marker coat and make sure you're getting all the way to the edge all the way around it with your polish stone. If you're not, that would go a long way toward explaining why even after stropping, you're having trouble getting the edge you want.

IME, it should be more forgiving to pressure than a hollow ground razor, so if you're not flattening one of those out honing it, you should be fine with this one, it's just going to take more work because you're working more metal. Even if you use tape, you're going to still end up chasing back a fat bevel because you can't get around the shallower grind - the tape just buys you a little bit of time to do it.

I don't know what everyone else thinks about pastes and such, but because of the shallow grind, I avoid a pasted strop on my wedge, working off the rounded bevel the next hone could create a huge amount of work.