epic failure

My friend cudarunner sent me some stones to learn to hone with. He has supplied me with a King 800, Norton 4/8k and a DMT 325. In theory, and in the videos I have viewed, this should be enough to get the job done. I also have a C12k (PHIG) that I bought just for polishing my existing edges.

Here's the epic fail...... So today I figured I could give honing a shot. I have an old Mandarin razor I have had for at least 6 months. It has a slight smile to it, and has at one time in it's life had a chip near the toe removed.

I started with the 800 and attempted to set the bevel. I have 22 other razors to compare it's edge to, so anytime I thought I was getting incorrect feedback, I would pull a known razor and pop some hairs with it.

According to Glenn, I should be able to pop hairs right off the 800, and this will show I have set the bevel correctly.

I have razors honed by 7 different honers. Lynn, Larry, Kelly, Glenn, Don, Travis and Roy. If I have forgotten anyone, I apologize. Each of the razors hone by these gentlemen are in excellent shaving condition and are my baseline of comparison.

Needless to say, I have viewed every video and read every wiki page on the subject. I've seen it done in person also.

So.... I started with lynn's video right off this website. I do as instructed and get what looks like (I have a 30x jewelers loop) a good consistent bevel. It is even all the way across and looks good. It won't cut a hair to save my life. I set the bevel again. No hairs pop. I do it again. Nope.... and again... NOPE!!

SO I figured it was me, not the edge. I have a great looking bevel, and I take it to the 4k. I follow the Vidoe's and test it. Nope, no hairs pop. Again, I think it is me... So off I go to the 8k. I polish it according to Glenn's video, using the pyramid. Again I test... Nope, no hairs pop.

I polish in on my C12k, take it to the paddles and strop it good in the shave den.

I decide the best test should be a test shave. I lather a small spot on my face and test it.

It felt good, I could hear the whiskers and I cleaned a nice spot. when I felt it, nope, nothing removed. I grab my baseline razor and lather and shave the same spot with it. Smooth as glass. EPIC FAIL.. Now I have a spot on my face that is raw as heck, scratched up and burning like a SOB!!!!

Back to the hones I go. Same routine, and no hairs will pop.

Needless to say, I'm a little frustrated.

I'm really not sure where to go from here. How can I be sure my bevel is set correctly? It looks great under magnification, but it just won't shave hair.

Epic Failure... :(

M

Use a magic marker on the bevel so you can see that you are hitting the edge. If you cannot pop hair with the edge off the 800 stone, you probably aren't establishing a bevel and all of the work you to with the finer grits means nothing.

Rick

You don't sound as though you've set the bevel. No amount of polishing an unset bevel will do any good. Keep going until it pops arm hairs off the bevel setter. I'm not sure that the loup is doing you any favours. The only visual test that I found useful starting out was to hold the razor, edge facing up and look at it in strong white light, there should be no reflection at all anywhere along the edge, if there is, you've not got the bevel set yet. Hope this helps and don't get frustrated, we've all been there.

Lol. You can watch all the videos in the world, but still real world experience is what counts.

Hone a lot, lots of razors.

Setting the bevel has little to do with what each side looks like, except as a consequence. You want both sides to meet at a point. You can have the most beautiful sides ever created, but if they do not meet at a fine enough point, there is no point!

I like the idea of popping hairs at the lower grits, but prefer the wet thumbnail test. Mainly because everyone has a thumbnail (generally), but not everyone has arm hair, or thick arm hair, etc. The edge should bite into the nail and offer even resistance all along the edge as you (carefully) pull it through the nail. Once this happens, do some more honing to remove the damage caused by the nail and move up to the next grit. I use this test up to and including the 4K stone, then move on to other tests (hairy ones) after that.

But yes, you need to make both sides come together in a much finer point than it sounds like you have now. loupes and microscopes cannot show you that.

James.

Hey MJ,

It was good to meet you in Denver.

One of the many things I took away from Glen's great demo was I wasn't using enough pressure on the 1K as I set the bevel. After seeing Glen do it, I came back home and used way more pressure doing circles to set the bevel. As Glen showed, I leave a little indentation on my finger (or thumb depending on which way I'm going). Doing it that way, I got to a good bevel in 5 to 10 minutes. After that, a few lighter pressure X-strokes on the 1K, then very light passes on 4K and 8K then my 8" Swaty has moved 3 problem razors to my shave sharp pile.

Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coloshaver

Hey MJ,

It was good to meet you in Denver.

One of the many things I took away from Glen's great demo was I wasn't using enough pressure on the 1K as I set the bevel. After seeing Glen do it, I came back home and used way more pressure doing circles to set the bevel. As Glen showed, I leave a little indentation on my finger (or thumb depending on which way I'm going). Doing it that way, I got to a good bevel in 5 to 10 minutes. After that, a few lighter pressure X-strokes on the 1K, then very light passes on 4K and 8K then my 8" Swaty has moved 3 problem razors to my shave sharp pile.

Good luck.

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Hi coloshaver!!!

Indeed my friend, it was good to meet ya!! And... I want you to know that did the trick...

I stopped being too paranoid and used just a touch more pressure than what I thought I should and BINGO!!!!! Hair was a-poppin'... I did the Thumb Nail Test as suggested above first, and realized that it felt like I had not felt before... So I got kind of excited. I went back to the hone to repair what I had just done and when I was finished I did the hair test. I had set the bevel..

I did the pyramid routine on the 4/8 and finished by polishing it on my PHIG and my paddles, then stropped it and it literally shaved a spot on my arm clean unexpectedly easy. I'd never tried this before and went a little far, and cleaned an inch long spot on my arm before I realized they were all coming off. How COOL!!!

I dropped trying to use the loupe as a way to tell if the bevel was set. Went just with the TNT and the arm hair test. Now I am off to do the final and most important test. I'm going to try and shave with it.

I've got my Bockla with me in case it sucks, LOL...


Thanks for all the help guys!!

M

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Setting the bevel has little to do with what each side looks like, except as a consequence. You want both sides to meet at a point. You can have the most beautiful sides ever created, but if they do not meet at a fine enough point, there is no point!

I like the idea of popping hairs at the lower grits, but prefer the wet thumbnail test. Mainly because everyone has a thumbnail (generally), but not everyone has arm hair, or thick arm hair, etc. The edge should bite into the nail and offer even resistance all along the edge as you (carefully) pull it through the nail. Once this happens, do some more honing to remove the damage caused by the nail and move up to the next grit. I use this test up to and including the 4K stone, then move on to other tests (hairy ones) after that.

But yes, you need to make both sides come together in a much finer point than it sounds like you have now. loupes and microscopes cannot show you that.

James.

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Great info,but a Question,would the perfect bevel be two equal angles,the spine dictates the angle as we know,question is if one side of the edge is say 63 degs,and the other side 53 degs,both should come to a point,one refines the edges to be shave ready (in the perfect world)
Or do's the defferance in angle have any effect on being able to create a shave ready edge?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Great info,but a Question,would the perfect bevel be two equal angles,the spine dictates the angle as we know,question is if one side of the edge is say 63 degs,and the other side 53 degs,both should come to a point,one refines the edges to be shave ready (in the perfect world)
Or do's the defferance in angle have any effect on being able to create a shave ready edge?

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No, as long as both sides come together, the angles are of little consequence. The Japanese kamisori, for example, has one side at approximately fifteen degrees and the other at effectively zero.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PensacolaTiger

No, as long as both sides come together, the angles are of little consequence. The Japanese kamisori, for example, has one side at approximately fifteen degrees and the other at effectively zero.

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Great example answeres my Question thx,I guess where my confusion is,any bevel will come to a point eventually if enough steel is removed,do not understand how it cannot.

Yes, that is exactly the point. If not enough metal has been removed the two sides will be too far apart to cleave hair. If you could look at the edge head on and magnify it, it would look like | | rather than |

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes, that is exactly the point. If not enough metal has been removed the two sides will be too far apart to cleave hair. If you could look at the edge head on and magnify it, it would look like | | rather than |

James.

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Thank you, Not an expert at honeing for sure,I do my own razors only and they shave well for me (DFS,single pass)I set a new bevel on every blade I get as a user blade even if it looks perfect from an unaided visual (overkill I know)It takes me a very long time to make my razors shave ready as I most likly am overhoning them (I tape them all) My feeling as you fortified is:remove enough steel setting a bevel and sooner or later the bevel will come together.It has to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

But yes, you need to make both sides come together in a much finer point than it sounds like you have now. loupes and microscopes cannot show you that.

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M'scopes can however show you if you're not even in the ballpark.

First pic shows an obvious shiny strip where stone has not yet made contact.
2nd pic scratches go all the way to the edge.

Shave report!

I got a nice clean shave with her. I'm very gratified to shave with a razor that I honed myself. Being my first, it is kinda cool. I can't thank my good friend Roy Davis enough. It was his good will sent me down this path.

Thanks Buddy!!

Thanks also to all who help out on here. Without you guys I would be floundering in the dark.

My best to you all,

Mike

Congrat's, sounds like you going in the right direction now, Once a technique is learned and leared properly the only thing, as you pointed out, to do is practice and pay attention to your success's as well as your failures.
I remember having trouble setting the bevel on an old German razor when I got the idea that instead of running around in circles I put the razor on my 1K/Norton and just did one side until it looked both even enough top to edge of bevel, but wide enough, then I noted the width and started on the reverse side until it started to make the other side loose some width, then I evened them up and I KNEW at that point both sides were meeting.
And by the way, it did turn out to be a very soft razor and I delegated it to that of NONE shaver!
Sometimes you just have to get creative and that was one time it worked for me, only used that trick one more time on a Shefield and got much better results on what was a much better shaver that time.

Welcome to Wet Shaving and have a great time, I do!!

tinkersd of SRP