Only Have a Coticule

Hello All,

Been away for a while, happy to see SRP still strong and growing. I have been using a 6"x2" yellow coticule solely for sharpening my blades. Although a great finisher and while I like the stone, feel it gives some inconsistent edges . . keenness? Which is most likely due to "operator error" & working on a small surface area. I like the broad options it gives; ie, slurry for fast cutting, plain wet as finisher, etc. But, in using a razor I got from ebay, where the seller finished the edge on some Japanese sounding stone I was amazed at its performance.

I am interested in looking at expanding my sharpening equipment (and skills), "up another notch" and while looking at the Wiki, past posts, I am open to suggestions; ie, just get a Norton 4/8K, Japanese 5/9K, etc, etc. I think my focus should be concentrated on developing a consistent cutting edge (bevel), then use my coticule as the finisher. I welcome all input.

Thanks all!

Alpsman

Hi, welcome back!

My only suggestion when starting down the multiple stone track is don't overdo it and start just collecting everything that has ever been mentioned in some orgy of stone collection. Spend the time learning how to get the best from each before getting more. There's nothing wrong with having every stone under the sun, but if you don't learn how to use each you'll be a "jack of all stones, master of none"!

James.

After a few months of honing, use a lot of different stones (HAD got me), I'd say the main thing I've learned is having a base "go-to" system is a must, something like Shaptons, Nanivas or Nortons.
These are quite reliable and will give you nice and consistent result, just about every time. At least that's how I feel about my Shaptons.
I dabble with cotis, C12K and Jnats, but every time I struggle, I know I can just hit the razor with the Shaptons, and I will be good to go in no time.
I've tried my cotis with all kinds of diddeliiduddelicots and what not, but I don't get very consistent results that way, I get much better results doing a razor up to 8k on the Shaptons and then use the other stones strictly as finishers.
That's what seem to work for me.

I'd recommend you buying a good 1k and a Norton 4/8K or some Naniwa Super Stones.

Having been through the "stone orgy" , as mentioned by Jimbo, I'm down to a Chosera 1k to set bevels, a Norton 4/8 and a DMT D8C continuous diamond plate for flattening my hones. That is my basic sharpening setup. I have a few naturals too but that is another story.

Yeah, for consistency you want something synthetic. I'd say norton since it's the cheapest option. The problem with the coticule, or anything else one-hone, is that you have to vary the cutting power by diluting slurry, and that's a bit tricky, as the density is fairly hard to control. With a discrete grit system your only variable is the number of strokes, and that is pretty straightforward (there's also the amount of pressure, but that really comes into play only at the very beginning when establishing the bevel).

Using the coticule with just water as a finisher is very consistent.

Jimbo said it well. We throw out terms like HAD as a joke, but it's real. People get addicted to buying stones, and wind up with more than they need or will ever use. Get yourself a set Naniwa's, Nortons, or the Shaptons. Synthetics are consistent. You know now, Naturals are not. You have high end synthetic finisher's too, like the Shapton 16k, and 30k. Even the Nani 12k.

I'm happy with my Naniwa's.

Inconsistent edges may be more to do with your bevel setting than your finishing. If you use your coticule as a finisher I imagine it would cover the 8k range of things. You could get a 1k & 4k synthetic to cover the low to mid range & if you like the J.edges that much you could eventually get an appropriate Jfinisher.

Thanks all,

Onimaru55 makes a good point as I can actually see the bevel differences on some of my blades. SOOooo, I am now looking at getting a "cutter" as well. Perhaps the combo 220/1000? Will I notice a difference between the Naniwa & Norton (as a I will be new to using a full set)?

Thanks again!

I would say if you really need a sharpening stone just buy the Norton 4/8K and use that, you can set bevels on it if you need to it just takes longer than a 1K stone. I don't think spending money on a whole set of Shaptons or Naniwas is the answer since that would be hundreds of dollars. You can go norton to coticule just fine.

Keep in mind that the full set of Nortons is quite a nice buy, check SRD with Lynn & Don first and see if they have it in stock if not, then Amazon it..
There is no razor I have come across that can't be tamed with that set,, then you have the Coticule to adjust the final edge with when you want...
There are other sets of stones out there too, but the Nortons are well proved, and help with them is easy to come by and the price is right :)...

Other ones to look at if you feel adventuresome
Naniwa
Shapton
King
Henckels (Naniwas)

I can just parrot the synthetic bandwagon - anything goes wrong in the Coti (frequently), the Nanis just deliver the goods day in and day out. Norton seems economical and reliable as it gets. The only fancy part I'd consider, depends on how many blades you need to set bevels on. If you do alot, that chosera 1k deserves all the praise it gets. I tried, and love it. If the most critical part of the honing is the bevel, having some horsepower here is money well spent. After that, most important being the finisher which is subjective voodoo. If you bevel is good and that allows your coti to perform well - no need to spend more. The rest, they say, is vanity.

Gents,
Thanks for all the input. I decided on the Norton 4/8K with a prep-stone to make a slurry on the 1K side. I will lap them with wet sand paper (400 - 600 - 1000 grit progression), when I get them since I have granite counters - Finish on coti.

gssixgun - nice vids, PM'd you BTW.

Thanks all!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alpsman

Hello All,

Been away for a while, happy to see SRP still strong and growing. I have been using a 6"x2" yellow coticule solely for sharpening my blades. Although a great finisher and while I like the stone, feel it gives some inconsistent edges . . keenness?
....snip....

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I used a coti for 20 years as my only hone.
Used it like a barber hone, 5-10 hone strokes
never lapped it never had a rubbing stone for it.

Then one day I discovered this gaggle of folk and
lapped my coti flat only to find that the hone and
the razor had grown old together. Like an old
man gets a back ache because his easy chair
got replaced by a new one that now matches
the rest of the furniture.

Tell us more about how you use your coti and
how many razors you use.

Have you added anything to your shave den that might
have upset things?

Others have mentioned the Naniwa 12k hone
and I can tell you from my experience that the Na12k
is a very good hone. It will do well with light
but relentless lapping to keep it close to flat.
Think half a sheet of paper as the max amount of
hone that needs to be "lapped". Do take
advantage of the slurry from the lapping process
as you hone. Dilute to clear water in a couple
steps to get the max effect out of your Naniwa
(same for the coti).

@gssixgun: Out of curiosity, have you ever set a bevel on a coti? I'm going through that process now of learning honing, and trying to set a bevel on a 40x150mm coti. I'd buy a Chosera 1k tonight if my budget allowed for it.

I really enjoyed your videos and learned a great deal from them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TZee

@gssixgun: Out of curiosity, have you ever set a bevel on a coti? I'm going through that process now of learning honing, and trying to set a bevel on a 40x150mm coti. I'd buy a Chosera 1k tonight if my budget allowed for it.

I really enjoyed your videos and learned a great deal from them.

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Yes when the whole "Whatevercot" started back in 09 I tried it to see if it was an effective system, honing as many razors as I do, I will try anything that might work easier or better... The system works, but it depends on what Coticule you have in front of you and/or the slurry stone you are using... It just isn't consistent enough for me, the "One Stone Hone" system is pretty effective but again it lacks a high enough consistency for me.. For someone that is only honing their own razors you have time to re-hone them in if it doesn't come out quite right everytime...
There is a King 1k out there that I have used, in fact it is in many of my Vids, and I used it because it is the least expensive 1k I have found that works very very well...
I have seen the King 1k being sold for as little as $19, it will greatly improve your experience, and honestly I would not recommend spending $90 on the Chosera unless you are planning on going pro :)

I've considered the King 1k as I can get it locally at Wood Craft, but won't I also need a DMT 325 (D8C?) to lap it?

I'm using a La Dressante au Bleu, if that helps. How were you able to successfully set the bevel? Did you actually follow the [Uni/Dil]cot methods? I wish I had that scope that you're using right now so I can see how much I've foobar'd this edge that I'm working with. I tried looking at it with the Ratshack $11.99 illuminated 60x-100x scope with no luck. A good 30x is what I need but I'm not sure where to get one locally. I know that I can order from Widget Supply.

My coticule is an older Select grade finisher, it is very very smooth and very hard the slurry stone helps because it is much softer, but you are adding three new variables to the honing matrix...

The Slurry
The Slurry stone
The Dilution

Every new variable makes the climb up the ladder a bit steeper...

If you have the time you can make any stone work with these slurry systems, the trick is you have to have the time and the skills, two things that are at a premium for new honers..

As to a DMT 325, that is optional (sandpaper and a flat surface works too) but it comes highly recommended, it honestly is my most used piece of honing equipment...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TZee

I've considered the King 1k as I can get it locally at Wood Craft, but won't I also need a DMT 325 (D8C?) to lap it?

I'm using a La Dressante au Bleu, if that helps. How were you able to successfully set the bevel? Did you actually follow the [Uni/Dil]cot methods? I wish I had that scope that you're using right now so I can see how much I've foobar'd this edge that I'm working with. I tried looking at it with the Ratshack $11.99 illuminated 60x-100x scope with no luck. A good 30x is what I need but I'm not sure where to get one locally. I know that I can order from Widget Supply.

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A big DMT is nice but not required.
Invest in a couple 14"x14" granite tiles
and use them to lap you hones on.

The back is rough enough to gets most
water stones started and the front
flat enough to call it good.

The key is that the 1K and the hone
you follow with have the same profile
so even if you dish the granite
a little the Coti will have the same
curved surface that the bevel setter
has.

You can also find some wet/dry
abrasive paper (3M is a good brand)
and use that on the tile. Later
you can invest in a DMT.

I would note that the 15 micron
film at Woodcraft for the pinnacle
sharpening system is about a 1K
equivalent. Glue it to something
flat (yes a granite tile is good here)
and you have a bevel setter for
a couple razors per sheet.

A coti is soft enough that the film
will lap on it. Next to
the 15 micron is 5 micron film
and also 0.3 micron film.

Once the bevel is set you can live
on your coti for a long time.

Following up, I think along with a decent bevel setter like the Chosera 1k, and the necessary skill, one can obtain a fairly keen razor using a Coticule. I'm not arguing that synthetics are not good options, rather that Coticules are stellar tools in their own right. The butter smooth edges that they yield more than make up for the learning curve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Having been through the "stone orgy" , as mentioned by Jimbo, I'm down to a Chosera 1k to set bevels, a Norton 4/8 and a DMT D8C continuous diamond plate for flattening my hones. That is my basic sharpening setup. I have a few naturals too but that is another story.

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"Another story" -- say, Jimmy, just how many naturals would "a few" be?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TZee

I've considered the King 1k as I can get it locally at Wood Craft, but won't I also need a DMT 325 (D8C?) to lap it?

I'm using a La Dressante au Bleu, if that helps. How were you able to successfully set the bevel? Did you actually follow the [Uni/Dil]cot methods? I wish I had that scope that you're using right now so I can see how much I've foobar'd this edge that I'm working with. I tried looking at it with the Ratshack $11.99 illuminated 60x-100x scope with no luck. A good 30x is what I need but I'm not sure where to get one locally. I know that I can order from Widget Supply.

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Like Glen, Most of the guys that have been here a while, have no name selected grade Coti's. That's how we bought them, Selected, Standard, and if you were lucky, you'd find a Kosher grade. Funny thing though, I do have a Dressante, As far as Coti's go, it's my favorite. A good cutter w/slurry. Beyond that, I have a La Nouvelle vein that I prefer for Finishing, if I'm in the Coti mood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

Like Glen, Most of the guys that have been here a while, have no name selected grade Coti's. That's how we bought them, Selected, Standard, and if you were lucky, you'd find a Kosher grade. Funny thing though, I do have a Dressante, As far as Coti's go, it's my favorite. A good cutter w/slurry. Beyond that, I have a La Nouvelle vein that I prefer for Finishing, if I'm in the Coti mood.

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By older, do you mean from the "Old Rock," pre-Ardennes? I think Glenn's Coticule, as that of any of the ones purchased new since 1998 are from Ardennes, and most likely identifiable by vein, even if they are not sold that way. Ardennes has reverted this policy again for reasons of simplicity I'm guessing.

I've heard that La Dressantes are consistently fast cutters, with some being faster than others. I actually have a La Nouvelle Veine (possibly from the slow side of the layer), not a La Dressante au Bleu as had been previously stated. It was an identification error. It is an excellent finisher, although it can be challenging at times. I've currently been enjoying my 2009 La Grise with beautiful orange/red blooms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TZee

I've considered the King 1k as I can get it locally at Wood Craft, but won't I also need a DMT 325 (D8C?) to lap it?

I'm using a La Dressante au Bleu, if that helps. How were you able to successfully set the bevel? Did you actually follow the [Uni/Dil]cot methods? I wish I had that scope that you're using right now so I can see how much I've foobar'd this edge that I'm working with. I tried looking at it with the Ratshack $11.99 illuminated 60x-100x scope with no luck. A good 30x is what I need but I'm not sure where to get one locally. I know that I can order from Widget Supply.

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Setting a bevel with a Coticule takes time. Slurry helps speed up a Coticule.
Expect to hone and shave test on multiple weekends with only a coti until
it gets right.

As for setting a bevel on a single razor it basically needs to be done correctly
once so you can do the math and send the razor to a honemaster or
pick up a 1K hone or a 4k/8k norton work horse and work a bit harder.
The Naniwa 3k/8k is also a good choice. I mention these because the
jump from 1k to a Coticule is largish.

The first trip to a honemaster can be worth three hones in your kit.

If you have exactly one hone like a Coticule or other finisher you can let
it wear and develop a gentle hollow that will act a lot like a layer of tape or two.
Use a rubbing/ slurry stone to keep the horns of the hone minimized.

For many years I only had a Coticule and had no problems. Then one day
I lapped it flat and I had difficulties until the razor and hone matched up
again.

Soft hones like a Coticule, Norton 4/8 and Naniwa 3/8 can be kept flat
with coarse 3M wet dry abrasive paper used on a flat surface.

From a new guy, who consistently makes every mistake I could have avoided. Pick a set, any set that's been suggested, and stick with it. While reading this thread, I saw myself getting lost in the suggestions. Before you know it, I'm thinking I need a Chosera, a Norton set, A coticule, a DMT, some japanese stones, and a bunch of stones from belgium with names I can't pronounce. So anyways, point is, if you just bought the Norton set, you'd be good. Same goes for all the others I bet. Just one....Man, that's tough. I think you already get it, but I'm still a little high off my first really successful honing attempt. If nothing else, I hope I reinforced the conclusion you already came to at least. Choose wisely! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

Like Glen, Most of the guys that have been here a while, have no name selected grade Coti's. That's how we bought them, Selected, Standard, and if you were lucky, you'd find a Kosher grade. Funny thing though, I do have a Dressante, As far as Coti's go, it's my favorite. A good cutter w/slurry. Beyond that, I have a La Nouvelle vein that I prefer for Finishing, if I'm in the Coti mood.

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If you can ask Ardennes for one ask for a La nouvelle Viene coticule. IMO, they are the best finishing coticules available today from the mine. If you want a one stone only honing approach that is different but as a finisher La Nouvelle Veine is slow on water but leaves a very fine, hairy popping, edge.

La Nouvelle Veine can also function as an all-in-one. I went from bevel set to finish on a Dovo Fritz Bracht 25 on my La Nouvelle Veine natural combo last night. It's moderate to fast on slurry, and moderate on water. On water I rinse often, as there is a mild hint of auto-slurrying.

As Disburden mentioned, this layer leaves one of the best Coticule finishes out there. It has a complex nature and underrated features.

La nouvelle can be used as all around , yes, but can be challenging. That layer slurry dulls fast and you need to practice dilution rate to an exact. Doing what Glenn does in his video with this layer wouldn't work that well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

La nouvelle can be used as all around , yes, but can be challenging. That layer slurry dulls fast and you need to practice dilution rate to an exact. Doing what Glenn does in his video with this layer wouldn't work that well.

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I would be very careful making assumptions like that, some of us might just do it just to prove you wrong :)

Anyone wanna send me a "La Nouvelle" to mess with, and a razor that you have honed before and know the edge on ????? :rofl2:

Without a doubt it can be done IMO. Even with the slurry dulling issue apparent in some, not all, La Nouvelle Veines. Increase the dilution time, and when on water, rinse more often.

(EDIT): I wanted to clarify for anyone stumbling across this post in the future that La Nouvelle Veine comes in two flavors: fast (mostly glued to slate), and slow (usually natural combo). There are cases where the natural combo can be moderately fast on both slurry and water, which was the case with the one I had. Some are really fast, as mentioned by disburden, requiring more precise dilution in order to avoid slurry dulling.