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I just bought a Norton 4k/8k from Classicshaving.com and im wondering which hone I should get for a finishing hone? I think I seen mention of coticule? Or something to that effect... what are my choices here? And any feedback, tips or hints you can provide. Thanks.
-Billy
Try the 8K, that might do it!
A coticule or escher are my choices. A pasted strop (Tony Miller makes good ones) is another popular alternative, and much easier to come by than either of the stones. A good pasted strop is also pretty easy to make yourself. Modern coticules apparently have some severe quality control problems, and Eschers are damn near unobtainable by anyone with budgetary constraints. :D You can get a good shaving edge with just the 8k, though. A lot of folks make that their final honing step.
Joe, can you use a Swaty as a finishing hone? Is there technically a difference between a finishing hone and a touch-up hone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Chandler
Gary
The 15k shapton works well as a finishing hone. Lynn claims in his video somebody on SRP owns the mysterious and pricey 30k shapton, I'm still waiting to hear the review on that baby.
You can also use a pasted paddle with a progression of 1 micron, 0.5 micron, and 0.25 micron pastes (you don't have to go all the way to 0.25, I've got one with just 1 and 0.5 pastes). 1 micron is roughly comparable to 15k grit, and 0.5 micron is roughly comparable to 30k grit.
You can use a fine barber hone as a finishing hone, the 3-line swaty is probably fine enough to qualify. I've got a King barber hone that I finish some of my razors on, it's been lapped very flat and very polished and does a good finish.
The problem with barber's hones is they are very small and can be tricky to use. There's a good reason the old barbers put smiling edges on their blades, the barber hones are much easier to use on smiling edges. My King barber hone puts an absolutely wicked edge on my smiling blades, but it's a good way for me to dull my straight edged razors.
Thanks for the great input guys. Im actually trying to avoid pastes... I dont know, something about pastes just rubs me the wrong way. The next question is, where to I obtain, or look to get more information about obtaining these hones? The Escher, Coticule or shapton? Also, this "Severe Quality Control" thing... is this something that can be avoided or is this something that should keep me from looking into that paticular hone?
-Billy
Mparker,
What is a Smiling blade? Sorry, im sort of a newb... well... Im a newb lol.
-Billy
Aren't eschers and coticules typically pretty small as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
(Thanks for your good advice the other night mparker, that did the trick both for the hone and the razor.)
Smiling blades: Hold the blade spine-up. Smiling blades curve up on the heel and toe, frowning blades curve down. Smiling blades are honed by rocking the blade along the hone, on small hones this works great because only a small portion of the blade is in contact with the hone anyway, and if you don't keep the hone or blade perfectly flat it doesn't matter much because you're always rocking it back and forth anyway.
Some eschers and coticules are small, but not all of them are. Lynn's got a big 'un.
Pastes are a classic sharpening tool, some of the old guys used chromium oxide (in the form of green paint) on paddles for sharpening their razors, and the white chalky paste has been used for a long time as well. And they're certainly cheaper than fine-grit hones -- the Shapton 15k is $130 or so, and the Shapton 30k is > $600 I think. A tube of 60k chromium oxide paste costs $10.
Ah, thank you for the little lesson Mparker... I'm about to go pull my razor out and look at it. As far as Stones vs pastes... It think > $600 vs $10 might make pastes rub me a little better lol... but I am pretty stuborn, maybe that will change after I shave half my face off though =P
-Billy
I have found a few barber hones that are terrific and easy to use. A few that only improved the edge a little. I don't know if there are any magic bullets though. If you do spend $600 on a hone it should shave you too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
lol, I cant even get my razor to shave yet! But your right, for 600 bucks it should =P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Chandler
I think you will find something surprisingly similar to the Eschers on my web pages in early October at very afordable prices <g>
So far testing has gone very well with my very particular Rabbi friend giving these the thumbs up.
Tony Miller
i personally use a norton 4k/8k first then i go onto a chinese 12000 grit wetstone as my finisher.
wasn't that expensive, a bit more then a barber hone will run ya, bit less then a corticule will cost. seem to work well. its also a very hard stone so it cuts slowly and i usually so 30+ laps on it to finish off before stropping it up
8" x 2 3/4" x 1 1/4" - 29$
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4920
and yes i lapped it flat after i bought it with 800grit sandpaper.
~J
Darn. I had almost forgotten about the 12k Chinese. I just got one in, and am waiting to try it. As far as the quality control, I'm basing that on statements Tony Miller had made (he used to sell them) about being unable to get good ones consistently anymore. Quality control isn't the right word, probably. I guess I should have said that it's apparently hard to mine good ones anymore, and the old rock ones are superior. So far, I like the Chinese, but haven't really experimented with it enough to know for sure. I got the 8x2x1, and it was only $19.98. Got two, actually, and cut one up for rubbing stones, since a big chunk broke off it right away. I'm definitely interested in what Tony's going to have coming up on his site, too, so I'll keep an eye on it. As far as a Swaty, I don't know, having never used one. I'm definitely actively searching for a Frictionite 00, though.
What about Arkansas natural stones?
Frictionite 00? I think I may have seen this come up somewhere before... is this a finishing stone as well? What kind of information can you lend on it? And if you would, keep me posted on that 12k Chinesse stone works out for you... I think I will try to toy with the Norton 4/8 for a while and keep searching for a good finish stone... im sure I'll need the time to toy with the 4k/8k before I really need a finish stone anyhow.
I have a 15K Shapton, and a coticule. I've personally had better results with the coticule.
E
There have been quite a few threads here over the past few months addressing the Coticules. I had good luck with some and the customers loved them. Others were nothing but grief, not giving my customers the edge they expected on $125-175 stones. The good ones are still cranking out shave ready edges, the bad ones went back to where they came from.
I tried several European suppliers and never really got one I was comfortable representing as I coud not always get usable stones. I am sure there are still plenty of good, recently quarried Coticules out there but just make sure that wherever you buy from you have the option of returning it if the edge is coarse after honing. If you get a good one you will love it.
The new stones are being tested by people I trust first before any go up for sale. As always though, you buy from me, you don't like, you send it back.....what's not to like?? <g>. I do still get vintage Coticles and Eschers from time to time and maintain a waitlist for those items.
Tony
Translucent arkansas works, and black arkansas probably works as well. They're very slow, and I wouldn't use them for primary honing. It's not in the same class as the fine shaptons and coticules and fine pasted strops. I've got a razor that's finished on pink translucent thats given me some of my best shaves, but the edge definitely isn't as refined as you get from the fine grit hones and pastes. It does work well for my beard because the edge seems to be tougher than the finer hones, and seems to cut my coarse beard very easily. I'm still experimenting with it, but the initial results are very intriguing. PM me if you're interested.
As for the coticule vs shapton debate, most of the guys that own both prefer the coticule. However good coticules are hard to come by while the Shapton is a couple of clicks away.
For starters, try to finish with the Norton 8000 only. If you feel you need sharper edge, search for alternative, which will be hard to find.
Nenad
I use a 12k (Japanese) as well as a pasted paddle strop (0.5 & 0.25 µ) for the ultimate refinement of the edge. The bulk of the work is done on the Norton combo however. The rest is just gravy.
X
May I suggest that you first become competent with the Norton 4/8k and a 2 sided paddle strop pasted with 1.0 and 0.5 micron pastes. It will save you a lot of money initially and give you a great edge.
I have a number of coticule's and even the vintage one's have
visual quality issues in some of them and excessive wear in others. Those that do are being cut up and being sold as slurry stones. Even if the visual inspection pass'es the microscope exam will reveal variations in size and density of the abrasive grains. So far about 33% of mine are not up to muster.
The Eschers are more consistent in appearence and grain but much more difficult to come by. They are also slightly better than the coticules IMHO.
The Chinese 12K stone also works like a charm for finishing and is very inexpensive but cuts slowly.
That being said I still like natural stones a lot!:)
Again, Thank you everyone so much for all the input. I think I am going to stick with the norton for now, and let my bank roll build a little... its amazing how fast the bill runs up buying everything. In the mean time I'll keep my eye out for a good finish stone for the future.
Also, as a side not, where should I post about buying another razor? Im kind of wanting a half beat up old razor that has a blade that needs a little TLC so I can practice with it on the hone without fear of damaging my only usable straight razor.
--Billy
Billy,Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
That's easy, go on eBay and buy any razor with a fuzzy picture and which has a descritpion that say MINT condition <g>. It is sure to be a beater!
Tony
Tony,
Haha, yeah I figured that much already. Im watching a couple of razors on E-bay right now. Theres a few that I can see some really wicked nasty blades through all the fuzz! You dont happen to be familiar with the damascus bladed razors? I know they cost a leg and the soul of your first born, anyone know if they are worth a damn? Just a curiosity... I cant see myself paying $700 for a razor. I dont care if it washes dishes, sweeps the floor and brushes my teeth... still you have to wonder =P
-Billy
Another candidate is the new Shapton GlassStone 16K. I just started using one and it's quite good. It's also very fast and has a very consistent feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Chandler
Check out Tony H's stuff. He's a member here (same nickname as e-bay) and he carries great restoration projects and practice blades. From time to time you can come across a real gem over there.
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ort=3&since=-1
Finishing hone and touchup hone are descriptions imposed on the hone based on your intended use. The Swaty is great as a touchup hone because its quite fast for that fineness. It lets you touch up in just a few swipes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
In the other hand the best finishing hones, tend to be not only fine but slow as well. It lets yoou bring the blade to the perfect edge without the danger of bypassing it. Typically, it also rwquires a lot more strokes.
You could use a Swaty to finish, but it can be difficult with a faster hone.
My favorite barber hone for finishing is the Honemaster.
That's not the reason the barber manual tells you to do it in order to avoid a frown, which gives a bad shave. In other words, a smile is not presented as any better than a straight edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
I recently determined that over time a hone which is not as wide as blade length but wider than half will give you a frown. That's because the ends of the blade spend less time on the hone than the middle. I believe that's why the barber manual discusses the smile. It would make the barber compensate for the typical width hone.
If you're getting a better edge with a smiling blade it probably has something to do with the way you shift the smiling blade as you're honing. If you used even pressure with both blades they should hone the same. If you put both blades on a wide hone with even pressure, the ends of the smiling blade are honed less, and eventually you will end up with a straight edge. To keep the smile, you would have to use more pressure at the ends of the blade, like the barber manual teaches.
Another thing that makes a difference for me is convenience. THe Norton 4/8 is the least convenient because you have to soak it first and working with it can be messy. Other wet hones I can use more easily by just putting a little water on them. But lately I prefer to work dry. You can use most barber hones that way, and some recommend it. Pastes are dry. If you're working dry you can do it anywhere, at a sesk or in an easy chair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
Pasted strops are also compact. You can get a 4 sided one with 6, 3, and 1 micron (equivalent to 3.5K, 8K and 14K) and plain leather on the fourth side. That lets you do everything except heavy honing on one tool, and at modest cost.
I have one, and as I remember it's two-sided. Fine side is good for finishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
We may be saying the same thing in different ways. With a smiling blade you don't overhone the middle on narrow hones because only a few millimeters of blade is actually touching the hone. With a flat blade where the entire edge is touching the hone then the middle gets overhoned because it's in contact the for entire pass while the toe and heel are only in contact at the beginning and end of the stroke. With a smiling blade you can control amount of hone contact by the rate you're rocking the blade. Additionally, if you're hand-holding the hone it's harder to keep the hone and a flat blade in perfect contact without using any pressure, this is even harder if you're standing at the sink doing a quick refresh, especially if you haven't had your first cuppa. The odds are pretty high that barbers noticed this as well. I haven't read any of the barber school manuals, which it sounds like you've done, so I'll defer to your knowledge as to the "official" reaons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
I'm trying to follow this about smiles and frowns. I understand what Joe's saying about a hone being more than half the width of the razor developing a frown over time - with the middle of the razor spending more time on the hone than the ends. Stands to reason.
What I don't understand are the techniques for compensating for this. How do you create a smile for a blade? Or is this just an original feature of the blade and you maintain it? What does it mean to "rock" the blade? I am imagining a semi-circular, scything movement, but it seems to me that this would increase, rather than decrease, the amount of time the middle of the blade spends on the hone.
Couldn't you just do an exaggerated x-pattern (think of it as a capital X), minimizing the time the middle of the blade spends on the hone? (Or is this what's meant by "rocking"?)
It's not clear to me how any of this could create the smile. Is that where pressure comes in - putting extra pressure when the ends are on the hone, lightening up in the middle?
Sorry, so many questions...
We have copies of the appropriate parts of the barber manual here so you can check it for yourself. The manual does not recommend rocking or scything or anything like that, which require skills that need to be developed. The newbie is taught to hone (I think it's five passes) the two ends of the razor separately using pressure and then to hone the middle using little pressure or none. In time the smile will develope, and they only suggest you create a slight one.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
As I'm understanding it, this differs from the standard x-pattern in that the angle of the blade changes as you go through the movement -- the heel leads at the beginning, the blade then "rocks" forward during the swipe, so that the point leads at the end. Is this right? The blade stays flat on the hone throughout, no?
No, there is no "flat on the hone" on a smiling blade, because the blade is curved like a saber. The rocking motion ensures that the entire length of the blade contacts the hone at some point over the course of a stroke. The X pattern describes the horizontal path of the blade over the stone, the roll-n-roll describes the vertical path of the heel and toe above the hone.
It's a lot easier to do than it is to describe, actually. It's tough to visualize 3-d movement from a verbal description.
Ask Tony Miller about Eschers and Coticules. He sold them in the past and knows all ifs and buts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Thank you Kees.
-Billy