The Razor from Hell.

I did a blog about the talking razor and though it was meant to be comical the truth is it is no joke. Over the years I've talked about what it took to get my TI Damascus shave ready. Out of the box it wouldn't shave period and as I recall a factory rep from TI said it was originally made more as a collectible and they didn't think folks would be shaving with so they weren't made shave ready. I don't know if that was true or an urban legend but what I have always known is that I fear this razor.

It took me months of off and on honing to get it working. Admittedly, this was years ago when I first started and didn't have the hones I have now or the knowledge and experience but I always knew the day had to come when it would need to be honed and that day has come. After years of use without ever needing a touch-up it now needs a touch-up. Notice I say touch-up. It still gives a great shave but the comfort factor is starting to ebb.

So at this point this little touch up has for stage one taken about 250 strokes on a .5 diamond bench strop and about equal on a .25 diamond and about 100 strokes on CrO and that was just to experiment. yea, when I test shaved I thought I noticed a minuscule improvement.

I figure before this thing gets back in the shape I want it will be well over 1000 strokes easy.

Tough steel eh?

If anyone has any words of wisdom here I'm all ears.

If the steel is tough enough to last years of use before needing a touch up then it's going to be tough as a b%tch to hone so ... with great power comes great responsibility?

Would you be better off using a stone as opposed to a bench strop, at least for the bulk of it and then finish it on the balsa strop?

The notion that I could give honing advice to the OP is about as likely as my advising Casanova about women.

That said, if I were faced with this problem, I would drop down to a Nani 10 or 12 K, then try a reliable Thuri with slurry, slowly diluting. Maybe 100 to200 strokes total , then shave. If Still no good, I would drop to an 8K unless I ran into something totally unexpected like chipping or a deteriorating edge and run itnup as above again. If still no good, I'd send it to thebigspendur.

Can you post pics? just purely because i've love to see it

Sure, here a pic:

Interesting looking edge. Looks like a massively wide bevel but I can see a much finer one there as well. Is that actually real folded steel or an etch?

Some advice that joe gave me that has worked well is that with wear resistant steel, slurry can help a lot.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Tough steel eh?

If anyone has any words of wisdom here I'm all ears.

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I've got it!!! Send it to Lynn?!?!!

I'm not honing genius - but I think I see two bevels. It sort of looks like you're cutting a new bevel above the old one...
I could be totally off base, but the stabilizer seems to end in the right place for what looks to be the original bevel... the blade also apperars to have a smile, yet the (upper?) bevel seems to be arrow-straight across the blade.
Is that correct or am I seeing an optical illusion or something?

No, what you see above the bevel is the steel that has been masked during the etching, so the pattern contrast is much less than on the etched part, though you can still see it.

If you take a closer look you'll see that the bevel looks wide because, unlike many of the custom makers, TI had the good sense to coat the edge with some sort of protectant so that the etch wouldn't go into the bevel. I"ve also got one and the damascus etching doesn't go all the way to the edge on purpose. I've had some by other makers that required honing clean through the etched area and it was a job.

Edit; while I was busy typing , and finding out if I spelled 'protectant' correctly ..... gugi beat me to the punch ..... what he said +1

Ahhhhhh - learn something new every day...

Ok, so it's etched, not what I recognise as "Damascus Steel" (right or wrong).

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Originally Posted by MickRussell

Ok, so it's etched, not what I recognise as "Damascus Steel" (right or wrong).

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Forge welded or "damascus" steel is dipped in an acid to 'etch' or highlight the different steels & show a pattern from the welding.

@ tbs. Sometimes when a blade is close to where I want it I alternate between the final polisher & diamond sprays. If I see a law of diminishing returns at work I may drop back in grit but hard/tough steels can take a while at polishing stage as at any stage.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Forge welded or "damascus" steel is dipped in an acid to 'etch' or highlight the different steels & show a pattern from the welding.

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Thanks. :) For a minute there I thought the "etched" part meant the pattern was artificial.

You should see my tamahagane razor - it develops the pattern contrast during honing - same idea different components oxidize at different rate. That's also the only razor that the swarf was turning orange as I honed, really weird...

From the picture you posted I see three issues. The bevel is into the stabilizer, there is a smile to the edge and you have at least two bevels. The bevel into the stabilizer will change the metal removal rate at the heal so I would round out the heal until the stabilizer is not in the bevel. It looks like you are using tape so I would go with at least two layers. The first layer to be half the width and tape to run from the toe on the spine and onto the shank as equal in length on both sides of the blade as possible. The second layer of tape to be full width over the first and not as far onto the shank as the first piece. Replace the top layer of tape when gets worn being sure the first layer doesn't move. This will ensure the back of the blade is at the same place on the hone between tape changes. Be sure to use the same angle laying your razor on the hone for all strokes be it straight across the hone or with the toe slightly angled, heal leading. Tip the tow up slightly and hone off the edge of the hone until you pass the center of the blade and then roll the blade during your stroke to raise the heal and get the toe in the hone. A slight angle with the heal leading will help keep the stabilizer off the hone. With a smiling blade more strokes will be needed as the bevel has less time on the hone during each stroke. I would use hones and not strops due to the multiple bevels. The hones will refine the bevel, the pasted strops will refine the burrs caused during honing. Damascus blades are made with at least two different types of metal. A Google search will return some articles that describe the metals used. I found some articles on knives that get into the metals used but I don't have the time to do the search again. The metals are chosen for their etching characteristics and the odds of one being harder than the other is very high. As Holli mentioned, a slurry will enhance the metal removal rate but may also effect the sharpness. If you have the time, patients and experience with a coti that may work but I have used slurry on Notons and Naniwa hones created with the next finer hone on hand. I think that using the two width tapes, the edge of the hone with a slight roll, a hard hone a bunch of time and patients you will have success. Another thing to look at is the flatness of the area that would wear during honing near the spine. If this is not flat your angle (straight across the hone or heal leading) will effect the bevel angle and multiple bevels may result from this. If you want to chat by phone drop me a PM and I'll send you my number. Good luck.

If that razor were mine, I think I would be soley tempted to send the razor away for a total regrind, I may be wrong but it looks very thick ? And if that's damascus it will be problematic, I would go for a more hollow ground blade than the one you have already.

Jamie

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

If anyone has any words of wisdom here I'm all ears.

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The journey of a thousand strokes begins with one pass on the hone

It's not a Chronik, you can handle it ;)

PS after you get it honed and think to yourself, "wow I can't believe I finally reconquered this razor" you can remember my words of wisdom and I won't have to say I toad you so

According to TI the blade is supposed to be true Wootz Steel. One of the few Damascus type razors to be made that way. Remember that through time Damascus steel did not have the pattern on it. That was polished off. They use an acid or chemical bath to bring out the pattern that is built into the steel. If you ever saw the Levi video of him making a razor you see him putting the razor in the tank.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

According to TI the blade is supposed to be true Wootz Steel. One of the few Damascus type razors to be made that way. Remember that through time Damascus steel did not have the pattern on it. That was polished off. They use an acid or chemical bath to bring out the pattern that is built into the steel. If you ever saw the Levi video of him making a razor you see him putting the razor in the tank.

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1. it's not wootz. The pattern is consistent with a laminated pattern welded steel.
2. Not knowing the parent materials, it's really difficult to comment on estimated hardness, but given your comment on how hard it's been to hone, it is probably of good enough quality steel. It has the look of laminates of similar steels, not the "modern" way where one of the metals would contain a little nickel to make it stand out.
3. To bring out the pattern usually requires some sort of contrast development using an acid or acid salt. This razor has the typical gray look of an acid etch.

Editorial: it's a little sad that TI assumed they would not be first a tool and prepare it as such.

TBS have you tried a barbers hone? BTW, I love that bevel.

Just my $.02 here......

Since it was shaving well before then the grind is good and the bevel is good. There is no need for reshaping of anything. Thanks to JimmyHad I understand why it looks to be two bevels but is not. The top appearing bevel is simply an unetched portion of the blade.
I have honed a razor with really tough steel. It took many hours ( 7-8), by 2 different people for a total of over 14 hours. Looking back on that effort I would say to start with a lower grit, like 8000 DMT, and work up the grit ladder. I would expect it to take at least 15 times the normal # of laps.
I hope I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Just my $.02 here......

Since it was shaving well before then the grind is good and the bevel is good. There is no need for reshaping of anything. Thanks to JimmyHad I understand why it looks to be two bevels but is not. The top appearing bevel is simply an unetched portion of the blade.
I have honed a razor with really tough steel. It took many hours ( 7-8), by 2 different people for a total of over 14 hours. Looking back on that effort I would say to start with a lower grit, like 8000 DMT, and work up the grit ladder. I would expect it to take at least 15 times the normal # of laps.
I hope I am wrong.

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No you are totally correct. Just think, take a typical say Dovo razor and do about 1000 trips on a .5 diamond bench strop and what would you have? Do it on this baby and you first see a slight improvement. Originally when I first got the razor I found the diamond really did the best job and now is no different. It's coming around just that it takes the time and patience. Right now I'm at the point where it shaves like an outstanding shaver which is good just that it is really an exceptional shaver so it will take the additional trips on the hone to get it back to that point.

I think if a situation arose where I had to rework the bevel on this thing I would find a honemeister I didn't like and send it out to him-har har.

Just a late thought. Could even try the diamond spray on a hard medium like the Spyderco UF. That turned the tide for me on a 66HRC Iwasaki that was pretty challenging.

Yea, it's back up to snuff now. It just took more trips.

I know a few guys here have that razor.

I don't know what kind of steel they used for it but honing it is very different than any other razor I have. It really laughs at most hones.