Won't sharpen! LOL,,, heard this before?

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10-03-2011, 02:34 AM
beerosaur

Won't sharpen! LOL,,, heard this before?

Hi all,
I recently decided to give this a crack and ebayed a Rogers XY Quality Sheffield. It seems to be in pretty good condition (I didn't see it on the avoid list). I have a 4k/8k combination (Norton). I have spent a ton of time (days) trying to sharpen the thing but to no avail. It has a nice mirror polish on the bevel, but won't cut arm hair! The bevel isn't super even because I think the blade has a tiny curve to it. I understand this isn't that big a deal and technique will solve it eventually. But right now all I'm aiming for is a sharp area somewhere on it!! LOL

I've watched the videos and I feel like I'm in the ballpark with my technique, but the edge just won't come. I keep it nice and flat and stroke a careful X pattern. I'm careful not to bang the edge..etc... I don't have a loupe or anything other than my thumb and the naked eye. I can see the difference between 4k and 8k edge, going from the 4k striation to shiny smooth with the 8k. But no super sharp edge...On my finger nail it has a little friction, and pulls across evenly. Forget the hanging hair test... it will slice butter though like noones business!

So what should I look for to try to fix this situation? Is it just super hard??? But even then days of messing with it should do something no?

I don't know what its made of, but it has a very shiny chrome finish, like a bumper on a car.

http://dc362.4shared.com/img/FtxcBqX6/R1_online.jpg
http://dc362.4shared.com/img/EK4zyih6/R2_2.jpg
http://dc362.4shared.com/img/JCYkMAJ.../R3_online.jpg

No wire edge, no flat spots that I can see....
-=Beer
10-03-2011, 02:42 AM
MickRussell

I can see the hone marks on the bevel in the middle picture so I don't think (take this advice for what it cost you, though) that you're even nearly done on the 8k yet, though if you couldn't get it to cut hair off a 1k you should go back to it. If you don't have a 1k you're gonna want to get a comfortable seat to sit on while you work on the 4k coz you'll be there a while.
10-03-2011, 02:51 AM
nun2sharp

Please stop dragging it across your fingernail, every time you do so you ruin whatever edge you have. The only time I drag an edge across my nail is when I am contemplating a purchase. I do this to see how good or bad the edge is, looking for minute chipping. If there is a warped blade are you compensating for it?
10-03-2011, 02:51 AM
UPD

Sounds to me like you haven't set the bevel yet. What you are looking for is something like this /\ and most likely you have something like this / \. The 4k is capable of setting a bevel, and there are a lot of old timers here that used to do it that way, but I would suggest picking up a 1k at the very least to set your bevels. You should be popping arm hairs with a properly set bevel.

You can stick with the 4k, you'll just need to spend some more time setting the bevel before you try to go to 8k, which is to polish and refine. You may or may not be able to pass HHT coming off the 8k.... What are you using between 8k and plain leather strop?

On the 4k, do some circles with some moderate pressure, don't be scared to put a little bit of pressure on it while you are setting the bevel. After you have the razor catching and popping hairs from toe to heel, then move up to 8k and polish out those 4k scratches.

Good luck.
10-03-2011, 02:58 AM
beerosaur

Wow, thanks for the quick reply guys! The hone is soaking again and I have a comfortable seat for another try. No more finger nails and I'm going to try some circles tonight. And yes, in my minds eye, / \ seems like what I have. I don't have anything for between the 8K and the strop. I just have the very basics, 4k/8k canvas/leather strop. I haven't even really tried the strop yet because I imagine it should cut hair of my arm first...LOL I'll take all the advice you guys will offer with no offense whatsoever, so if I'm doing something stupid, feel free to tell me!

How long are you guys talking about on the 4k roughly? It's hard with zero reference... guys in videos seem to be able to do them in 15 minutes. This one has had hours, and it didn't even seem that messed up to start with, though dull...

-= Beer
10-03-2011, 03:09 AM
UPD

Don't worry about the time or number of strokes.... You'll be done with the bevel when the razor is catching and popping hair the full length of the blade. That could take 2 minutes or 2 hours.

I would suggest a few things to you if you are serious about honing. #1, get a 1k bevel setter. #2, get a finishing stone (12k, etc.). #3, get some sort of pasted strop (poor man strop kit from whippeddog.com)

The 1k stone will do 90% of your honing "work", then the 4k/8k and beyond will fall right into place.
10-03-2011, 03:23 AM
vgod

i think i agree with nun2sharp and upd. stop with the whole fingernail test. that checks for chips. and i don't think you have a bevel set yet. when you figure out the bevel, like upd says 'the 4k/8k and beyond will fall right into place.'

that is the advice i give to more new people learning to hone. learn what a good bevel feels like. and keep at it. you have the desire, you just need that 1st success!!!!
10-03-2011, 04:14 AM
beerosaur

Still working it...the heel seems to be getting there (cutting hair!) ...the tip (toe?) nowhere near... Circles seemed to have helped alot with the heel. Wish I had a 1k! I do have a strop, just havent really felt the need to use it yet considering how my honing is going... :) what a challenge...phew! Back I go...
10-03-2011, 05:48 AM
fragalot

If you've gotten the heel to cut but the rest still doesn't quite work, try lifting the tang just the slightest bit (don't actually lift it off the stone, just decrease the amount of grip that gravity has on it :P) to work the tip a bit more..

try to get the edge as even as possible by varying how much you lift it..
10-03-2011, 06:03 AM
beerosaur

Aha! I think I understand the bevel now :) I got annoyed and grabbed some 400 grit sandpaper and wrapped it around my hone. It immediately put a nice straight, even bevel on the razor. 4000 wasn't making much of a bevel at all, that would have taken another week. I moved to the 4000 with very light pressure, if any... now the razor will cut arm hair all up and down the edge, but it takes a little pressure. Is that correct, or should it cut with just the weight of the razor? Is it time for the 8000?

-= Beer

PS... I just tried a little shaving cream on my arm. My first straight razor bald spot :) ...it seemed to shave it off pretty easily...but that's not my face either!
10-03-2011, 02:35 PM
Lynn

If you follow this video, it should work for you. Straight Razor Place '09 Convention. Lynn Honing #1 - YouTube

So long as the bevel is set, 40 firm circles each way,followed by 40 no pressure circles each way followed by 5-10 no pressure X strokes all on the 4K. Then 7-10 no pressure X strokes on the 8K, strop and test shave. If you're not quite there 3-5 no pressure X strokes will usually do the trick. The key is to make sure you are keeping your razor flat on the stone and using no pressure after the first set of circles.

Don't let your expectations get the best of you. Honing like shaving is a learned art and there is a definite learning curve. The harder you press yourself and the more you get frustrated, the worse you will do. Deep breath. Take it a little at a time. If it doesn't hit, come back at the razor later vs. spending hours at one sitting.

Have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerosaur

Wow, thanks for the quick reply guys! The hone is soaking again and I have a comfortable seat for another try. No more finger nails and I'm going to try some circles tonight. And yes, in my minds eye, / \ seems like what I have. I don't have anything for between the 8K and the strop. I just have the very basics, 4k/8k canvas/leather strop. I haven't even really tried the strop yet because I imagine it should cut hair of my arm first...LOL I'll take all the advice you guys will offer with no offense whatsoever, so if I'm doing something stupid, feel free to tell me!

How long are you guys talking about on the 4k roughly? It's hard with zero reference... guys in videos seem to be able to do them in 15 minutes. This one has had hours, and it didn't even seem that messed up to start with, though dull...

-= Beer
10-03-2011, 03:22 PM
beerosaur

Hi Lynn,
LOL, I didn't have anything better to do and it was fun! I finally got it cutting hairs off my arm, but don't have whiskers at the moment. The 400 sandpaper was probably a bit much as it put some serious wear on the spine, but the bevel AHA! moment was totally worth it. I only paid 12 bucks for the razor so anything goes!
It's just a learning razor. I did watch your video.

-= Beer
10-12-2011, 07:41 AM
beerosaur

Hi all,
Finally got around to shaving with my little experiment a couple of times. Mostly the side of my face, and tonight I dabbled in all areas...All I can say is I now have something new to wish I could do to my ex wife when she asks for more money! Terrible. The side of my face seemed to go okay because having so much blade in contact allowed for a little pressure...that part went fine. Everything else was grab..grab...grab and throw in a nick! LOL... I guess it's just not sharp enough still. It won't pass HHT, but will shave my arm with a bit of pressure. The weight of the razor sliding across my arm cuts nothing. Tomorrow I'm going to start over with the 40 circle routine. Does that seem reasonable? If that doesn't work I'd like to mail it to one of you gurus to look at it and tell me what I'm screwing up. So any volunteers? :) Is my razor any good? Maybe I'm beating a dead horse... it's a Rogers XY Quality -- Sheffield. Anyone know about this razor?

On a side note, I ran around to all the local barbers to try to get a professional opinion on my razors edge, not one of them knew @#$% about them, how lame! Even the old timers... There is a place in downtown Tacoma that advertises old school straight razor shaves that I haven't gone to yet. I might just get a shave there and see how it's supposed to feel.

The side of my face is giving me just a hint of how cool this can be if it works right... I hope I can figure it out.
-= Beer
10-13-2011, 05:30 AM
OmidFarahbakhsh

I'm going to interject here a throw a few things out there for consideration. From what I have gathered you are new to both straight shaving and honing. Not to discourage you because I admire your bravery taking on both challenges at once. But I presents an added hurdle, you don't know if you're honing is the issue or your ability to shave, probably both. Just the nature of the beast, if there was no challenge I for one wouldn't be doing it. I'd take a step back get a professionally honed razor and go from there. Work on your prep, angles so on a so forth. Learn how to shave at least reasonably well, then learn how to hone. Or learn how to hone and have someone else shave with your razors to tell you if your getting it right :P K maybe not. Any ways good luck.
cheer
-Omid
10-13-2011, 05:57 AM
beerosaur

Thanks Omid...

I'm going to give it one more go, then I'll get it honed professionally. There's a knife shop down the street that says they can do them for $10.00. Does that sound right?

-= Beer
10-13-2011, 06:04 AM
paco664

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerosaur

I'm going to give it one more go, then I'll get it honed professionally. There's a knife shop down the street that says they can do them for $10.00. Does that sound right?

-= Beer

no...

send it to one of the honemeisters here.... they may be a bit more expensive but you will get your moneys worth.... the knife guy will just dick it up and you'll have to pay someone to fix what he did..... its best to just pay once....

IMHO
10-13-2011, 07:12 AM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerosaur

I'm going to give it one more go, then I'll get it honed professionally. There's a knife shop down the street that says they can do them for $10.00. Does that sound right?

-= Beer

If they don't shave with a straight they can't hone a straight. Look in the classifieds here:
Member Services - Straight Razor Place Classifieds
10-13-2011, 08:15 AM
niftyshaving

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerosaur

Still working it...the heel seems to be getting there (cutting hair!) ...the tip (toe?) nowhere near... Circles seemed to have helped alot with the heel. Wish I had a 1k! I do have a strop, just havent really felt the need to use it yet considering how my honing is going... :) what a challenge...phew! Back I go...

Do review the magic market test. Take a Sharpie magic marker that
has a color that is easy for you to see. Wipe the marker on the edge and
also the spine.

Give the razor one trip (up then flip and return) and inspect to see
if there is any marker left on the bevel. A magnifying glass
can help. Also a bright light inspection... if you look down at the edge
and see a reflection the bevel is not set (edge not bevel). I often
walk to a sunny window and find that I still have a thin red line (red marker)
on the edge side of the bevel or see glints and reflections from what should
be a sharp invisible edge.

Since all you have is a 4k/8k hone do visit youtube and look for the
videos by gssixgun. The circles and 'japanese' hone strokes
remove steel faster than the alternating final hone strokes.
Circles seem to balance out small toe-heal honing issues and very
gentle smiles. The toe of your razor is trouble so be sure to
look at the smiling wedge videos and more. But you should be able
to sharpen most of the razor with no special strokes.
10-13-2011, 05:16 PM
UPD

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerosaur

I'm going to give it one more go, then I'll get it honed professionally. There's a knife shop down the street that says they can do them for $10.00. Does that sound right?

-= Beer

If the shop is "Seattle Edge", then you might give it a shot. Albert is known to me, he shaves with a straight razor and he's a very talented knife sharpener. I know he hones his own razors, so there is a good possibility he can hone yours quite well.

Here's my advice: Get one shave-ready razor from someone who knows how to hone. Start learning how to shave, then contact Larry at whippeddog.com who is offering free honing lessons... He will mail you a few of his razors, you try to hone them, mail them back and he will offer his feedback on how you did and where you could improve. Good luck.
10-14-2011, 02:02 AM
beerosaur

Hahahahaha, I haven't heard "dick it up" in a while..Hahahahaha... honemeister it shall be then. Maybe the honemeister can evaluate my efforts too, that would be cool.

I'll try the magic marker test when I get home...
Thanks to all of you who are taking the time to help me. Im enjoying the learning curve. No rush here...

Beer
10-14-2011, 05:29 AM
cpcohen1945

If you're resting the edge on your skin, and you have to use _any_ pressure to shave arm hair, the edge isn't sharp.

When the edge will cut arm hair _without touching the skin at all_ -- holding the edge just above the skin -- _then_ it's time for a test shave.

Charles

PS -- this is the "arm-hair popping" test; it works for me.
10-14-2011, 04:20 PM
beerosaur

Ohhh thanks Charles for that little tidbiits. I had that wrong in my mind too. I'm definitely not Sharp enough for that, now I have to figure out why. I ordered a little magnifier on eBay and hopefully it will shed some light on my struggle.

Thanks again guys, this is so fun. I love learning new things, especially when its hard...

Beer
10-14-2011, 04:42 PM
UPD

You're not that sharp because you didn't get a good bevel set. You should stay with your bevel setter until you are popping hairs off your arm, no pressure needed really, just touch the razor to a hair and if it catches and pops all the way down the edge (toe to heel), then you're ready to move up a stone. Good luck.
10-14-2011, 09:34 PM
beerosaur

Sounds like a plan. I planning on starting all over with circles on the 4000 when I get back. Too bad I can't take it with me on the road, lots of time to kill in hotels. Does anyone know about my razor? Rodgers XY quality? Sorry about all my questions...ill answer some when I know...LOL

Beer
10-18-2011, 05:03 AM
beerosaur

Hi all,
So I was back at work on the razor today, LOL.. BUT! I also spent the best 5 bucks I've spent in a long time on a mini-microscope off ebay. Here's the ad for it if you're interested, it's really cool. 60X Pocket Microscope Jeweler Magnifier LED Loupe Eye | eBay And no, I'm not selling them....:cry:

Anyway... here's some video of my razor taken with the little microscoped taped to my cell phone. Maybe it can give you guys a clue as to my lack of honing skills.. :) I'm going to go try a shave in a bit... I'll report back. Its cutting arm hair... I think you might need to have the quicktime player installed to see them, but not sure...that's what mine is playing it with....

http://dc431.4shared.com/img/Oh9272s.../VIDEO0056.3gp
http://dc438.4shared.com/img/4ssjnC3.../VIDEO0055.3gp
http://dc439.4shared.com/img/SDenWyO...9/IMAG1354.jpg
10-18-2011, 07:06 AM
beerosaur

SHAVE REPORT:

!!!!#!@#$!@#$%!@#$!@#^%^&^%!@#@!@#!!!!!!

Sent you an email Lynn....I need a point of reference.
10-18-2011, 10:27 AM
jeness

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerosaur

SHAVE REPORT:

!!!!#!@#$!@#$%!@#$!@#^%^&^%!@#@!@#!!!!!!

Sent you an email Lynn....I need a point of reference.

Good decision, you won't regret it. It makes sharpening much easier if you know what the goal is.
10-26-2011, 08:28 PM
beerosaur

Ok, so I sent some pics to Lynn and we determined my razor was pretty much a goner and likely not to hone well. Sooo...Dovo 5/8 shows up a few days later! LOL, much better! I have been able to do full face shaves twice now. A little pull here and there, but that's probably technique because the razor is beautiful. It has much more heft and generally much better quality than what I had to start with. It's more of a fine instrument, rather than a tool.

The neck and chin are pretty tough, but what a hoot! No bloodshed yet... I'll keep trying! LOL I'm digging getting some great grandpa on! Just ebayed a cool Gillette DE and a sample pack of blades...

Thanks for all your help guys. I hope to try my hand at honing again when it needs it, hopefully I don't mess up Lynns fine handiwork! For now, I plan on the occassional stropping to keep it in order.

-= Beer

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