What constitutes a bad razor?

I've done a lot of reading since I'm new to straight razors, and finally able to get a clean shave with comfort. I got two high end razors and a few starters from shooter (a great fella I met on the forum). I've been using his as a bench mark for how my newly honed razors should work.

I started with a super small (from spine to edge) and super hollow john prince razor. I really fell nicely into 5/8 razors so I thought this should be awesome. It's super light weight and had a bevel. I jumped on the 1k and evened out the bevel. Made sure toe mid and end cut fine. Went onto the 4k/8k and did a pyramid. Went onto the canvas, did 60 laps and 100 on leather. This was saturday. Today I rushed home like a school kid and ran to the bathroom to shave. Wtg was ok but something felt off. Xtg was a little less comfortable and still had this weird feeling and finally gave up and went with one of the wostys I got from shooter. It was like friggin night and day. It felt so sturdy and comfortable.

I went back to the John prince and tried a bit of atg. That was a nightmare. It felt like the blade was giving way it just felt flimsy and week, and a little like it was pulling. It was just horrible all the way around.

I tried a biedermeier wedge that I also honed Saturday and trimmed the beard on my checks and shaved my mustache. Got a great bbs shave with it. So now I'm confused as heck and frustrated.

My neck was where I tried the John prince, and it is a very sensitive part of my shave. so I'm not sure if I could of got an equally good shave on my cheeks with the john prince and if the wedge is not sharp and would have failed on my neck.

I know neither are as sharp as the wosty I got from an expert honer. But my questions are:

Is the John prince crap?
Could it be crap steel?
Is there a razor so hollow it feels flimpsy during a shave?
If I followed the pyramid why would I not be as sharp and smooth as a pro honed razor?
Can someone give me passes on a 4k/8k that will get me sharp?
Is there such a thing as a crap shaving razor? I've heard beauty razors are.

I've read the term "popping hair" everywhere but haven't seen it in action. I know I'm supposed to make hairs pop out of the 1k. But I'm not sure what that is. I've ot the razors on the 1k to have hair at the base of the shaft with not preside but skin contact at a 30 degree angle. That I thought was enough so I feel if any issues it is at the 4k/8k level. But now I. Confused because the hair doesn't pop on a 1k it just shaves off cleanly.


Thank you in advance. Specially if you remember to answer all my questions.

Welcome to SRP! :) Sounds like you didn't go far enough with your bevel setter. Try cutting arm hairs when you finish on your 1k. If the hairs don't just fall over dead go back to the 1k. If the hairs poop, your close but still need more on the 1k. After the 1k drops hairs the following hones just polish the edge. Sounds like you are stropping way to much but I guess if you are doing it correctly it doesn't do much harm. Good luck.

I am going agree 99% with Joe on this, a crappy razor is a blade that will not take or will not hold an edge. That said, most vintage razors do not fall into this category. It sounds to me as if you need to go back to the 1k level, I like to get my razors to "popping hair" at this stage whereas Joe seems to like his to "poop". He must create one "scary sharp" edge to achieve this!


Joe, please do not edit your post, its just too funny!

On the face of it, it would seem that a crappy razor would be more likely to make the hairs poop than one that wasn't crappy. Or if it wasn't already crappy, then shaving through the hairs and making them poop would make it crappy quickly.

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Originally Posted by Joed

Welcome to SRP! :) Sounds like you didn't go far enough with your bevel setter. Try cutting arm hairs when you finish on your 1k. If the hairs don't just fall over dead go back to the 1k. If the hairs poop, your close but still need more on the 1k. After the 1k drops hairs the following hones just polish the edge. Sounds like you are stropping way to much but I guess if you are doing it correctly it doesn't do much harm. Good luck.

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after the 1k i'm able to shave pretty much to the skin, i mean hair is coming off with little to no effort, at about 30 degree angle. Its not popping but it is slicing the hair with no effort right from the root. i read mention of hair cutting at mid shaft, so i figured cutting at the root pretty much skin was a good sign....... NEVER saw popping effect though. i tried going with the prince past the point of being able to shave arm hair to the root, and it just dulled it and i had to start over again. does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I am going agree 99% with Joe on this, a crappy razor is a blade that will not take or will not hold an edge. That said, most vintage razors do not fall into this category. It sounds to me as if you need to go back to the 1k level, I like to get my razors to "popping hair" at this stage whereas Joe seems to like his to "poop". He must create one "scary sharp" edge to achieve this!


Joe, please do not edit your post, its just too funny!

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can you describe the popping effect in more detail? or is there a video i can find? at the 1k hair kinda just falls onto the razors face. doesn't fall over to my arm, which i thought was a good sign because i'm going with the grain.

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Originally Posted by ace

On the face of it, it would seem that a crappy razor would be more likely to make the hairs poop than one that wasn't crappy. Or if it wasn't already crappy, then shaving through the hairs and making them poop would make it crappy quickly.

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now i am thoroughly confused.

thanks for all the replies, once i get into a project. Unless i succeed greatly, i get obsessed, and can't think of anything but finishing the project. I wish i had started this closer to the NY/NJ Meet in November. I can't wait until then to figure out how to get at least a descent WTG shave with a self honed razor.

i'm an idiot, i just read an article posted by a mod on popping hair. It is done against the grain, with the blade above skin level. I took one honed by a pro, and it popped hairs. So now i know the action. Mine did not do that, but then again i never tried it properly before honing too much on the 1k and having to start over.

I know this is a stupid newb question, but as a safe bet how many laps on the 1k will get me to popp hair? i saw Lynns video that is posted on the front page he only did 50 circles and about 10 laps, and that got him to where he was comfortable. then someone shaved arm hair with the grain at skin level. and they agreed it was good. went on to the 4k. so taking that literally i did 60 laps on the 1k it shaved arm hair, and i went off to the 4k. Obviously this did not work like Lynn intended it to work on his razor.

anyone know why?

There is no magic number just stay on the 1k until every part of the razor (point to heel) Cuts hair. As stated above some where you set the bevel with the 1k(this is the majority of your honing) then move on to your polishing the edge hones 5-10 passes should do for each hone. Then strop linen side 40-60, then leather side 60-120 there is no magic number here either.
Hope this helped

Colin

Not to stir the pot, but I don't know if I've ever checked at the 1000 grit level to see if hairs will just lay over without stropping, but coming off of a shapton and not spending an overly large amount of time on the 1000, I would guess that they don't (my razors never see this stone more than once).

I just like to make sure the bevel on the stones is created with *no* pressure and that the work is done all the way to the edge on both sides (with *no* pressure required).

Do folks here with experience really check their edges after the 1000 stone to see if the edge shaves there?

I usually don't do anything other than check the edges with my fingernail at the 1k level, and then with a loupe once I get to a stone that leaves a polish, and no real hair tests until the edge is finished.

I guess what I'm saying is I would imagine a lot of time is being spent on the 1k stone that doesn't need to be spent there once a decent bevel that goes all the way to the edge is already formed, especially on an aggressive stone like a shapton or something that will cut deeply with all but the lightest pressure.

As far as junk razors, I can think of a couple of things:
* Bad grind or warped (slightly warped is the biggest pain to me on a decent euro-origin razor, there should be no bad grinds at that level of quality)
* and in junk razors, the ones with unspecified and not so great steel that leads to unsatisfying sharpness or an overly fragile edge (that is if they aren't already warped or poorly ground, which is pretty common in my experience).

[QUOTE=Jp1munoz;857410]I went back to the John prince and tried a bit of atg. That was a nightmare. It felt like the blade was giving way it just felt flimsy and week, and a little like it was pulling. It was just horrible all the way around.

I tried a biedermeier wedge that I also honed Saturday and trimmed the beard on my checks and shaved my mustache. Got a great bbs shave with it. So now I'm confused as heck and frustrated.
QUOTE]

These two statements make me think you are using to much pressure, the wedge grind is much less critical of pressure...

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Do folks here with experience really check their edges after the 1000 stone to see if the edge shaves there?

Yes but armhair, you could try the real shave and learn a ton about your honing if you dare... :)

I usually don't do anything other than check the edges with my fingernail at the 1k level, and then with a loupe once I get to a stone that leaves a polish, and no real hair tests until the edge is finished.

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TNT is a great indicator too, and is also very nice for checking for roughness, either one works, and both can have downsides, Whichever works best for you is fine ....

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Originally Posted by TrilliumLT

There is no magic number just stay on the 1k until every part of the razor (point to heel) Cuts hair. Colin

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That is exactly what i did, and i got a horrible shave. so i thought making hair "pop" was the sweet spot. just didnt get what popping was. i'm going to give it another shot. should i go back to the 1k to make hair pop? or just continue on the 4k/8k?

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

That is exactly what i did, and i got a horrible shave. so i thought making hair "pop" was the sweet spot. just didnt get what popping was. i'm going to give it another shot. should i go back to the 1k to make hair pop? or just continue on the 4k/8k?

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If you have hair popping and a horrible shave, it would seem that you haven't done enough polishing, or that maybe you are doing something that's creating a fragile or torn edge.

Did you use anything after the stone to ease the aggressiveness of the edge? (i see you used a bare strop and canvas, maybe some something less aggressive than aluminum oxide stones would be a good step - a paste or a different hone - paste being much cheaper).

Don't discount the fact that you're mentioning the razor is super light. If you are used to the authority of a razor that has a hefty spine, or especially a wedge, a very very light razor can feel a bit jerky and dangerous even at the same sharpness. It can (in my experience) be a lot less forgiving to too much honing pressure if the grind is super delicate, too.

After on the 1k it should cut hair not "pop" it. Put up a few pics for us of the razor and maybe a few of you honing it. Something funny is goin on and i'd like to rule out the Newbie Factor.

[QUOTE=gssixgun;857590]

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

I went back to the John prince and tried a bit of atg. That was a nightmare. It felt like the blade was giving way it just felt flimsy and week, and a little like it was pulling. It was just horrible all the way around.

I tried a biedermeier wedge that I also honed Saturday and trimmed the beard on my checks and shaved my mustache. Got a great bbs shave with it. So now I'm confused as heck and frustrated.
QUOTE]

if i used too much pressure, how do i remedy the issue? back to polishing? or rebeveling?

These two statements make me think you are using to much pressure, the wedge grind is much less critical of pressure...




TNT is a great indicator too, and is also very nice for checking for roughness, either one works, and both can have downsides, Whichever works best for you is fine ....

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Originally Posted by TrilliumLT

After on the 1k it should cut hair not "pop" it. Put up a few pics for us of the razor and maybe a few of you honing it. Something funny is goin on and i'd like to rule out the Newbie Factor.

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ill get that up when i get home around seven. thank you.

If you used too much pressure but got all the way to the edge, you should be able to hone the razor with your polish stone, or your semi-polish and then polish stone (you're using a norton, right?). You could take a few very light swipes with the 4k side, and do whatever you would do after you have the bevel set to finish the edge. With less pressure, you should already be working right on the edge because you're not flattening it out while you're honing.

Since it's the next day, you may have done this already.

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I am going agree 99% with Joe on this, a crappy razor is a blade that will not take or will not hold an edge. That said, most vintage razors do not fall into this category. It sounds to me as if you need to go back to the 1k level, I like to get my razors to "popping hair" at this stage whereas Joe seems to like his to "poop". He must create one "scary sharp" edge to achieve this!


Joe, please do not edit your post, its just too funny!

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LOL, yea fat fingers. Off topic: Why do sharks circle their prey before they attack? Answer: Because they taste better w/o the poop.

I am no expert but I had a very similar problem, try doing a search for microchipping..... when I saw the three microchips on my "slightly ucomfortable but agressively sharp" razor i couldnt believe my eyes!!

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

....snip...
Confused because the hair doesn't pop on a 1k it just shaves off cleanly.
.....

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From my keyboard you bevel is good.

I would point you to the pyramid method as outlined in the Wiki.
Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki
This is because you have a Norton 4k/8k combo.

And I would remind myself that stropping can make a good well honed edge
a lot better or wreck it. Strop slow and smooth... ten slow and
smooth are way better than 100 too fast to control strop strokes.

You can do a short 1k/4k pyramid followed by a 4k/8k pyramid
if you think the bevel is questionable.

Less than 50 posts may justify a reminder that the magic
marker test has great value. Use a magic marker that you
can see with ease. Black, red, blue, green... what ever
is easy to see.

Mark the razors edge, then one up one down hone stroke on the 4k or 8k hone
and inspect to see if any marker is left on the edge. Look for that
thin line of marker that indicates the bevel is not clear and clean to the
edge. Also take the opportunity to mark the spine -- you might find
that your stroke is not as even as you expect it is. Again the spine
wear area should be wiped clean of marker ink.

Patches of unexpected ink may indicate that an X stroke or modified X stroke
or other adjustment has value. Do let the ink dry for about 10 min for best results.

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If I followed the pyramid why would I not be as sharp and smooth as a pro honed razor?

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That's very funny -- unintentionally, I think.

It's like saying:

. . . If I play the same notes as Horowitz, why don't I sound as good as he does?

"Feel" is an important part of honing. You don't have a pro's experience; why would you expect to achieve a pro's results? The tools are simple, and everybody has them. But the _skill to use the tools_ isn't so easy to purchase.

Charles

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

That's very funny -- unintentionally, I think.

It's like saying:

. . . If I play the same notes as Horowitz, why don't I sound as good as he does?

"Feel" is an important part of honing. You don't have a pro's experience; why would you expect to achieve a pro's results? The tools are simple, and everybody has them. But the _skill to use the tools_ isn't so easy to purchase.

Charles

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Skill is one component.
Today a pro will use one or more hone that takes
the edge beyond a Norton 4k/8k pyramid and then
the same pro will strop the edge perhaps with
a fine pasted strop.

Stropping does not need paste -- stropping is
important.. slow and smooth is the way to go.

In my humble and probably ignorant opinion I would have to agree with Glen about too much pressure. I had a razor when I first started honing that kept microchipping until I used *no* pressure on all phases espescially the bevel setter on 1k. After that it turned into one of my sharpest razors as well as teaching me an ivaluable lesson.

i gave up and sent five razors to be honed by a pro. I'll learn in another life. : (