Honing a ????????able Damascus Razor

OK gents hone test begins :)

One of our members was given this as a gift, and he sent it out for honing...
The razor is a 6/8+ with Horn scales and is etched "Barber Side"

As you can see in the pics it has an edge but no hone wear on the spine, so either somebody used tape or somebody used a knife sharpener :dropjaw:

Looking under a 30x loupe makes me think tape, as the bevel has a nice haze finish.
The etching looks deep and goes into the bevel and edge, an AHT proves that it can cut hair in spots, but pulls rather hard.

I am going to go with my most reliable set of hones, the Norton 1-4-8 and see what happens...
I will post in this thread with progress pics and conclusion pics.

This will be a honest attempt to get this shaving, I am trying hard not to pre-judge the razor...

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Is this a razor from one of the less renowned manufacturers?

James.

just a post so i can follow this saga....

I look forward to the results.

Ya this should be interesting!

Glen, any impressions on the overall quality (fit and finish), before you even get to the question of shavability?

You say etching,is this a true Damascus blade?

bookmarking this...

Glen, let us know if you see any serrations in the edge from the Damascus pattern. Looks to be some vertical striations which in the carbon pattern weld don't seem to be a problem all the time, but interesting to find out on this one.

Thanks.

Looking forward to reading more. Subscribed.

Here is the outcome...

All honing was done using 1 layer of 3M #700 electrical tape. I spent 1 hour trying on the razor..
1k Norton literally was tearing the metal away, looked like a hacksaw blade under magnification, the feel was wrong, the sound was wrong, so I stopped.
Moved it to the 4k and worked a bit with some slurry to even up the edge some using a more gentle approach, again the metal was very soft and worked fast, but I was getting a polish to the edge..
Moved to the 8k and started with a light slurry and diluted out to clear water, still quite a bit of metal swarf on the hone..
I could still pop arm hair but no where near normal, move to the CrOx strop and, bam,,, edge polished right up, looked like a normal razor now and the arm hair popped better, so I stropped it and lathered up...
Shave:
Technically it shaved, there was hair removed, I did one WTG pass and gave up, looking at the edge reveled the problem, there was significant edge damage from just 1/2 a shave... The metal is just not where it needs to be...
If you were to keep a CrOx charge strop handy and do about 10 laps after maybe 2 shaving strokes you could probably shave with the razor...

All kidding aside this is what drives people away from our hobby if this were my first razor my thought would be "Those guys are full of Crap, this sux"
Honestly my face is a bit raw...

You should be able to see the polish of the edge in these pics compared to the first ones from the honing..

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Question about the metal...

Is there a way that this "Damascus" pattern can be etched onto plain metal?????? because that is what is looks like to me...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Question about the metal...

Is there a way that this "Damascus" pattern can be etched onto plain metal?????? because that is what is looks like to me...

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I can't find exactly how to do it but on bladeforums there are plenty of threads discussing the ability to etch a regular steel blade so that it looks like damascus. Or it could just be "real" damascus steel from a Pakistani factory that they did their normal stellar bit of heat treating and used extra high quality pot metal this time.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Question about the metal...

Is there a way that this "Damascus" pattern can be etched onto plain metal?????? because that is what is looks like to me...

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Doesn't Dovo do exactly this on one of its models?

Has been done for a very long time,this is faux damascus.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...fontinelle.jpg

OK then !!! this is from my normal simple TP and WD-40 wipe down before return shipping.. I have never seen this before on any other razor... I stopped at this too, and just re-packed it for the return trip...

Was the metal breaking down just from the WD40??

very interested to see how this goes as i have a local knifemaker offering "damascus" blades which to my untrained eye are very attractive supposedly rockwell 62 but not inexpensive either .. i am very skeptical ???

thanks for posting this project Glen
Mike

I didn't have high hopes for this razor. Especially after seeing that square point at the heel.

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Originally Posted by Mastershake

Was the metal breaking down just from the WD40??

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That was likely the residue left over from the ferric chloride etch of the damascus. Some smiths leave some on the blade to increase the contrast after polishing, and usually seal the surface of the blade with beeswax. The WD-40 acted like a solvent and dissolved the wax so the residue came off on the TP.

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Originally Posted by Mastershake

Was the metal breaking down just from the WD40??

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They etch it with ferric Chloride,same chemical used on real damascus,it wipes off to a point.
Whoops,my bad,got in under the wire,sorry

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Shave:
Technically it shaved, there was hair removed, I did one WTG pass and gave up, looking at the edge revealed the problem, there was significant edge damage from just 1/2 a shave... The metal is just not where it needs to be...

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This is exactly the experience I had with a regular M.I.P. (Made in Pakistan) razor. 1/2 a shave & it was in hacksaw mode.
Looking at the blade pic is hard to tell if it is forge folded or simply carbon steel that was heavily etched. I won't guess but there are plain & alloy carbon steels that will pattern that way given enough acid baths. It really depends on how the steel was rolled, what's in it & how homogenous it is.

The black oxide coming off the blade is quite normal. It is neutralised rust coming from the acid etching.
Tim Zowada refers to it on his website.
"For the first few uses, you may notice a black residue coming off the blade. This is iron oxide left from the etching of the Damascus pattern. The black layers are slightly pitted during the etching. These microscopic pits hold the iron oxide. After several uses the black residue should be completely cleaned out."

Yeah guys I own a couple of Damascus blades a Livi and a Harner, and I have honed quite a few but I have never seen this before... Granted many of the ones I have honed were used but not all...

is there a possibility of removing the blade from the scales and attempting a re-heat treat??

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Originally Posted by Theseus

I didn't have high hopes for this razor. Especially after seeing that square point at the heel.

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Why is that? The heel in itself does not tell you anything about the quality of the blade. Most of our esteemed razor craftsmen make a square heeled razor model, yet no one is calling their quality into question.... although I'm careful not to compare this piece to Livi, Harner, Zowada etc....

Nice thread Glen, interesting read.

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Originally Posted by paco664

is there a possibility of removing the blade from the scales and attempting a re-heat treat??

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Usually not, as when a razor is finished it is too thin to reheat without warping or cracking.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Usually not, as when a razor is finished it is too thin to reheat without warping or cracking.

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to be fair it ain't like it would screw it up.... it already is a POS...

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Why is that? The heel in itself does not tell you anything about the quality of the blade. Most of our esteemed razor craftsmen make a square heeled razor model, yet no one is calling their quality into question.... although I'm careful not to compare this piece to Livi, Harner, Zowada etc....

Nice thread Glen, interesting read.

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I know that the great custom makers use heel points such as this and I didn't mean to call their quality into question. I should have worded my response better.

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Originally Posted by paco664

to be fair it ain't like it would screw it up.... it already is a POS...

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Yes but in its present state it will open letters.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Yes but in its present state it will open letters.

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lol.... well.... at least its good for something....

The acid etched Allman razor I have also did that when I wiped it down for the first few shaves.
Not that this razor is near Bob's skills.

I always like seeing these stories about unknown razors. I don't know why.

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Originally Posted by deighaingeal

The acid etched Allman razor I have also did that when I wiped it down for the first few shaves.
Not that this razor is near Bob's skills.

I always like seeing these stories about unknown razors. I don't know why.

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its the eternal search for the diamond in the rough.........

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK then !!! this is from my normal simple TP and WD-40 wipe down before return shipping.. I have never seen this before on any other razor... I stopped at this too, and just re-packed it for the return trip...

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An etched blade will have black foo that will wipe off. Eventually the dark black
will be almost gone and the pattern will be less stark but will stay.

Muriatic Acid or Feric chloride??????

It is possible to print a pattern on steel with a resist then etch. If the pattern looks
like pattern welded steel, wood, a man hunting, your name or what ever the final etch
will look like the pattern.

(edit) The black is etched steel and either folded steel laminate or printed resist etch
the black would be the same. I think Mike Blue is correct this looks like
pattern welded steel but badly heat treated, just terrible steel or the carbon was
burned off as the steel was folded, welded and hammered. If the steel is terrible
or if the carbon has been burned off it is what it is. If it is just bad heat treating
there is an ultra long shot that it could be heated quenched and tempered again.
Perhaps painted with a clay slip or heated in an inert gas like argon to keep O2
and CO from reacting with the carbon and steel.
While we are timing melting snowballs one might try case hardening but that
would mandate asymmetric sharpening to keep the thin hardened surface in play
for more than one day.

Another question: Does the pattern flow up onto the spine and tang, around all the corners so to speak? If it does, then if it is artifake pattern welding, the author went to significantly more difficulty to do the job, or it really is a laminate. All the fake etched pattern stuff I've ever handled was only the largest flat surfaces and the lines on the pattern don't match around a corner.

I'm voting for the Bros. Pak and Stan given the description of edge lost after one shave. Probably an early model too. These guys seem to be learning fast about heat treatment and steel mixes.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Question about the metal...

Is there a way that this "Damascus" pattern can be etched onto plain metal?????? because that is what is looks like to me...

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Yes and no.
I've seen it done, but it is very recognizable. The pattern usually looks like someone painted a noodle on the blade.
With these pics, imo the pattern looks real enough.

However, if one of the metals was a metal that was not suitable for razors, it would still be real damascus, yet give the experience you described. It is probably way too soft. Or the HT sucked.