BIG chip in russian ebay blade

I've got a nice set of 7 russian blades I got mostly from ebay( one from sham) that I got very cheaply to practice my honing skills on( the sham blade of course is perfect edge). Five have seriously dull but passable edges. Two have pretty serious chips in them

I put one on my DMT 325 to get the minor( but plentiful) rough edges out and it worked great til I discovered this half moon shaped divot in the center. How does one take the edge down to the lowest commmon flat surface so I can start over with a new bevel?

thanks

Two methods:

1. Just keep honing until the rest of the edge is ground back to the bottom of the divot;

2. "Breadknife" the blade -- check the Wiki for instructions.

Charles

Freehand hone the edge at a low angle. It is easier to restart the bevel than with "breadknifing"

The easiest is to buy a razor without big chunks of steel missing. Of course, if your time is worth next to nothing the total cost may still be better than simply cutting your losses as early as possible.

Or you could look to the positive: if you hone that out properly your muscle memory will have well and truly kicked in!

James.

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Originally Posted by gugi

The easiest is to buy a razor without big chunks of steel missing. Of course, if your time is worth next to nothing the total cost may still be better than simply cutting your losses as early as possible.

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of course, but the six others I bought only need minor hone work. and I didn't even see the chip til it was under the scope. the practice is worth much either way

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Or you could look to the positive: if you hone that out properly your muscle memory will have well and truly kicked in!

James.

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exactly what I was thinking too.

How powerful is your scope. I'm asking because if I can't see a chip with the naked eye, then it's not really a big chip. Something that i can see without a scope, that's less than say 1mm wide or deep, can usually be taken out with some pressure circles on a 1k. If you want to drop it down, use your 1k with a good slurry.

If I'm seeing chips at 10x magnification....I just hone like normal.....start at the 1k.

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Originally Posted by Maxi

How powerful is your scope. I'm asking because if I can't see a chip with the naked eye, then it's not really a big chip. Something that i can see without a scope, that's less than say 1mm wide or deep, can usually be taken out with some pressure circles on a 1k. If you want to drop it down, use your 1k with a good slurry.

If I'm seeing chips at 10x magnification....I just hone like normal.....start at the 1k.

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good point,I didn't know that. My scope is very powerful( 60-100x mag) and I can't see it at all with the eye even up close.That's why this forum is so good,being able to benefit from you guys's experience.It just looks pretty craggy at that mag.

Anyway I just breadknifed it on my DMT 325 and it came out very quicky. I had reset the bevel yesterday and it looked great except for that chip. Now it's very even and I can start over. This kind of practice is what I got these blades for. thanks

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If the chip is not even visible with the naked eye, breadknifing it on a DMT is like killing a mosquito with a hammer.
Doing a couple of passes on the 1K works just fine.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If the chip is not even visible with the naked eye, breadknifing it on a DMT is like killing a mosquito with a hammer.
Doing a couple of passes on the 1K works just fine.

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lol, it's one dead mosquito though. I took it very easy on the DMT and checked it under the scope and it looks fine. I did quite a few passes on the 1 k with the spine taped yesterday and it didn't even come close to removing it.

we'll see; I'll re work the bevel when I come home from work today and see what it looks like.

This is definitely a learning process for me but I am not afraid to make mistakes during it, which is a plus.

thanks for the info though, appreciate all the help from everybody

The problem is not that the mosquito is very quickly killed, it's that the table underneath the mosquito gets smashed.
Breadknifing is a pretty drastic action, and can have other results.

And a 1K with slurry can actually be much more aggressive than a 325 diamond plate.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

The problem is not that the mosquito is very quickly killed, it's that the table underneath the mosquito gets smashed.
Breadknifing is a pretty drastic action, and can have other results.

And a 1K with slurry can actually be much more aggressive than a 325 diamond plate.

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thanks for the info. I was very gentle with the pressure but that's good to know.

On this forum the penalty for bread-knifing is 50 lashes with an SRD Latigo strop.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

On this forum the penalty for bread-knifing is 50 lashes with an SRD Latigo strop.

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ouch :))

unfortunately it worked perfectly. the chip came out, the bevel got re set and the edge came out to a nice mirror finish.

Agh. Breadknifing. It's just a lot of work. Now if the blade is a crapper and you want the practice...then by all means test it out. But for something with a minor frown or chip, breadknifing will surely buy you a couple extra hours on the hone that you really didn't need.

The few times that I've done it, halfway through resetting the bevel my mind is saying "Oh man...you're an idiot....why did you do this??!!"

It's like having a few too many wobbly pops. You wake up in the morning and say you're never going to do that again....but two months later.....

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

On this forum the penalty for bread-knifing is 50 lashes with an SRD Latigo strop.

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Never mind the Latigo strop, the penalty should be the paddle strop!!!:whipped:

ok guys, if breadknifing is such a horror perhaps the wiki should not have it so well detailed in it's explanation of how to deal with chips? BTW , as I wrote above it solved my problem on both blades very easily and resetting the bevel and edges turned out great.

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Originally Posted by Maxi

Agh. Breadknifing. It's just a lot of work. Now if the blade is a crapper and you want the practice...then by all means test it out. But for something with a minor frown or chip, breadknifing will surely buy you a couple extra hours on the hone that you really didn't need.

The few times that I've done it, halfway through resetting the bevel my mind is saying "Oh man...you're an idiot....why did you do this??!!"

It's like having a few too many wobbly pops. You wake up in the morning and say you're never going to do that again....but two months later.....

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I hear what everyone is saying but what cost me more time on the hone was trying to get it out that way and everytime I went back to the 'scope the crater was still there :))

a few light passes over the 325 dmt and it was even up with the rest of the edge and the "table" below the mosquito was fine.

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Originally Posted by RogueRazor

ok guys, if breadknifing is such a horror perhaps the wiki should not have it so well detailed in it's explanation of how to deal with chips? BTW , as I wrote above it solved my problem on both blades very easily and resetting the bevel and edges turned out great.

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Breadknifing is in the Wiki as a tool for restoring badly damaged edges, not removing invisible chips :)

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Originally Posted by RogueRazor

I hear what everyone is saying but what cost me more time on the hone was trying to get it out that way and everytime I went back to the 'scope the crater was still there :))

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Seriously ??? You said the chip was invisible to the naked eye. When I read that I thought even 1k may have been overkill. I'm almost thinking your honing was not reaching the edge for some reason, like a warp etc...
Shame you couldn't have taken a pic to give us an idea of the size.

Just to give you a point of reference I removed chips from a Henkels 5/8 Inox with a 1k Shapton Pro in 5-6 minutes of normal honing. Some of the chips were the full depth of the original bevel.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Breadknifing is in the Wiki as a tool for restoring badly damaged edges, not removing invisible chips :)



Seriously ??? You said the chip was invisible to the naked eye. When I read that I thought even 1k may have been overkill. I'm almost thinking your honing was not reaching the edge for some reason, like a warp etc...
Shame you couldn't have taken a pic to give us an idea of the size.

Just to give you a point of reference I removed chips from a Henkels 5/8 Inox with a 1k Shapton Pro in 5-6 minutes of normal honing. Some of the chips were the full depth of the original bevel.

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One thing to remember is that I am complete newbie when it comes to all of this and could be using really bad techniques on the 1k etc. But I have to to say this;after doing what I did I compared the look of the edge that was produced with one that sham honed for me and they looked very similar in terms of angles and "shine". again, I have no real idea what I'm doing and just experimenting.

all I know is that when I look under the scope at professionally honed edges I don't see jagged angles and divots. I want to make my edges look like those.

we'll see how good I did when I shave with it.

Not criticising your honing or inexperience. Just trying to prevent you getting into a habit of taking extreme measures that may create more wear than needed.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Not criticising your honing or inexperience. Just trying to prevent you getting into a habit of taking extreme measures that may create more wear than needed.

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lol, there is plenty to criticise; as I wrote I am a total newbie and appreciate all your experience and advice. I do wonder why all the strokes on the 1k did almost nothing to smooth out the microchips though as others suggested they could.

If I'm taking chips out on a 1k, I've got some serious pressure going on. I'm not killing the razor, but I'm making swarf really quickly.

Maybe that's it. Were you using pressure on the 1K, or were you just using the weight of the blade?

Having breakknifed two razors and had to bring them back I can confidently assure you that if you are absolutely certain it needs to be done, 1. ask someone else. If they say no, take their advice. If they say yes, repeat step one. If several experienced honers say yes then you might have a case for doing it. Then ssk someone else, again, just to make sure. It takes longer to work back from than it does to ask fifty people if you should really do it.

On the other hand, hitting mosquitoes with a hammer is kind of fun. I also have teenage kids so my definition of personal pain my be scewed. ymmv

Breadknifing takes off more steel than it is necessary to remove.

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Originally Posted by Maxi

If I'm taking chips out on a 1k, I've got some serious pressure going on. I'm not killing the razor, but I'm making swarf really quickly.

Maybe that's it. Were you using pressure on the 1K, or were you just using the weight of the blade?

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probably not enough pressure by the sound of it.

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Originally Posted by MickRussell

Having breakknifed two razors and had to bring them back I can confidently assure you that if you are absolutely certain it needs to be done, 1. ask someone else. If they say no, take their advice. If they say yes, repeat step one. If several experienced honers say yes then you might have a case for doing it. Then ssk someone else, again, just to make sure. It takes longer to work back from than it does to ask fifty people if you should really do it.

On the other hand, hitting mosquitoes with a hammer is kind of fun. I also have teenage kids so my definition of personal pain my be scewed. ymmv

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my kids are into their 20's so I know what you mean:))

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Originally Posted by RogueRazor

lol, there is plenty to criticise; as I wrote I am a total newbie and appreciate all your experience and advice. I do wonder why all the strokes on the 1k did almost nothing to smooth out the microchips though as others suggested they could.

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Pressure has been suggested. Tho just how much is appropriate is a difficult concept to write about. Anything more than just right & you flex the edge away from the stone resulting in heaps of bevel wear & no edge contact. I actually find very little pressure works for me & if I'm removing chips I'll just make sure I'm using an aggressive hone.
Of course poor blade geometry can also make edge contact difficult e.g. frowns ,warps etc..

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Originally Posted by ace

Breadknifing takes off more steel than it is necessary to remove.

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I don't understand that.

Say we start with a perfectly straight edge, with a chip in it. Two ways to fix:

1. Hone the bevel until it reaches the bottom of the chip.

2. Breadknife the edge until the breadknifed "edge" reaches the bottom of the chip, and then re-set the bevel.

The results -- the shape of the final razor -- are exactly the same for both methods. So they remove _the same amount of steel_.

Charles

PS - I've never breadknifed a razor; my _personal_ choice has been method 1. But I'm not prejudiced.<g>

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

The results -- the shape of the final razor -- are exactly the same for both methods.

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That's where you're wrong. The result in most cases is not the same.

Most razors do not have perfectly straight edge, but rather a curved one i.e. a smile. It matches the curve on the spine in a very specific manner because the hone is a flat plane. and you only hone one point of the edge at a time.

By breadknifing you are destroying the relationship between the lines along the spine and the edge (actually bands, the one along the edge is called bevel) that must lay on the same plane while honing and reestablishing that takes longer time and takes more steel off the razor.

Regular honing strokes modify these two bands very gradually keeping the relationship intact, so there less work to be done overall.

This is a bit mathematical, so understanding it is not everybody's cup of tea, but it is what actually happens.

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

I don't understand that.

Say we start with a perfectly straight edge, with a chip in it. Two ways to fix:

1. Hone the bevel until it reaches the bottom of the chip.

2. Breadknife the edge until the breadknifed "edge" reaches the bottom of the chip, and then re-set the bevel.

The results -- the shape of the final razor -- are exactly the same for both methods. So they remove _the same amount of steel_.

Charles

PS - I've never breadknifed a razor; my _personal_ choice has been method 1. But I'm not prejudiced.<g>

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that's how I visualized it. I used very light pressure and just a few strokes across my dmt 325 trying to bring the "edge" down to where I visualized the chips were. I don't know if that is breadknifing proper or not but it seemed to work, whereas multiple attempts at honing it out did not.

Hate to tell you but if you could not hone out such a small chip by regular means there is every chance that area is still not as sharp as the rest of the razor.

Something to consider. You hone & hone & hone on a 1k & the chip is still there. Obviously there is no stone contact at that point. Now you breadknife the chip away. You have not changed the grind or spine geometry. How has that changed the original problem ?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Hate to tell you but if you could not hone out such a small chip by regular means there is every chance that area is still not as sharp as the rest of the razor.

Something to consider. You hone & hone & hone on a 1k & the chip is still there. Obviously there is no stone contact at that point. Now you breadknife the chip away. You have not changed the grind or spine geometry. How has that changed the original problem ?

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well the only answer I have is that under the scope the chip is gone, the edge line is even with the rest of the blade, and polished, and the bevel looks even.haven't shaved with it yet so that, obviously will be the real test. again, I am a complete newbie here and I'm SURE most of my 'techniques' are suspect and just in complete beginners mode.

To me, the original problem was what I perceived as a big chip(actually a microchip) is now gone and the edge is symmetrical with the rest of the blade.

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Originally Posted by RogueRazor

haven't shaved with it yet so that, obviously will be the real test.

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The shave is what it's all about & a good one makes any honing challenges worth while. G'luck & keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

I don't understand that.

Say we start with a perfectly straight edge, with a chip in it. Two ways to fix:

1. Hone the bevel until it reaches the bottom of the chip.

2. Breadknife the edge until the breadknifed "edge" reaches the bottom of the chip, and then re-set the bevel.

The results -- the shape of the final razor -- are exactly the same for both methods. So they remove _the same amount of steel_.

Charles

PS - I've never breadknifed a razor; my _personal_ choice has been method 1. But I'm not prejudiced.<g>

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There is a difference. If you breadknife a blade, you then have to hone away some material to get a bevel and then
polish that bevel. If you don't breadknife the blade, you don't have to hone away as much steel because you have
retained the edge without breadknifing it away. The difference may not be considerable, but any time you have removed
steel that didn't need to be removed, that is an unpardonable razor sin. You can take off steel, but it's hard to put it back on.